1 00:00:02,869 --> 00:00:01,429 this channel is about theories of 2 00:00:05,110 --> 00:00:02,879 everything in the mathematically 3 00:00:06,389 --> 00:00:05,120 rigorous theoretical physics sense but 4 00:00:08,470 --> 00:00:06,399 as well as understanding the role 5 00:00:10,549 --> 00:00:08,480 consciousness has within physics perhaps 6 00:00:11,990 --> 00:00:10,559 even without physics in order to have a 7 00:00:13,749 --> 00:00:12,000 meticulous and comprehensive 8 00:00:15,270 --> 00:00:13,759 understanding of toes then one should 9 00:00:17,670 --> 00:00:15,280 understand or at least attempt to 10 00:00:19,670 --> 00:00:17,680 understand the more experiential eastern 11 00:00:21,910 --> 00:00:19,680 approaches rather than purely the 12 00:00:23,429 --> 00:00:21,920 western analytical one admittingly the 13 00:00:25,349 --> 00:00:23,439 latter is the approach that i'm most 14 00:00:27,509 --> 00:00:25,359 comfortable with which is why i'm in an 15 00:00:29,269 --> 00:00:27,519 extremely lucky and blessed position 16 00:00:32,229 --> 00:00:29,279 since this initial foray into the 17 00:00:33,270 --> 00:00:32,239 eastern area of spirituality is with a h 18 00:00:37,990 --> 00:00:33,280 almas 19 00:00:39,750 --> 00:00:38,000 advisor who writes about and teaches an 20 00:00:42,150 --> 00:00:39,760 approach to spiritual development 21 00:00:43,990 --> 00:00:42,160 informed by depth psychology and therapy 22 00:00:46,630 --> 00:00:44,000 called the diamond approach in fact 23 00:00:49,190 --> 00:00:46,640 almas is the arabic word for diamond 24 00:00:51,029 --> 00:00:49,200 given that almas holds a phd in physics 25 00:00:53,189 --> 00:00:51,039 this episode serves as a copacetic 26 00:00:55,670 --> 00:00:53,199 introduction both to the regular viewers 27 00:00:57,270 --> 00:00:55,680 of this channel as well as to myself to 28 00:00:59,670 --> 00:00:57,280 the ideas of what at least is 29 00:01:01,189 --> 00:00:59,680 demonically called the east click on the 30 00:01:02,950 --> 00:01:01,199 time stamp in the description if you'd 31 00:01:05,109 --> 00:01:02,960 like to skip this intro my name is 32 00:01:06,870 --> 00:01:05,119 kirchey mungle i'm a torontonian 33 00:01:09,190 --> 00:01:06,880 filmmaker with a background in 34 00:01:11,590 --> 00:01:09,200 mathematical physics dedicated to the 35 00:01:13,429 --> 00:01:11,600 explication of the variegated terrain of 36 00:01:15,350 --> 00:01:13,439 theories of everything from a 37 00:01:17,350 --> 00:01:15,360 theoretical physics perspective but as 38 00:01:19,109 --> 00:01:17,360 well as analyzing consciousness and 39 00:01:21,270 --> 00:01:19,119 seeing its potential connection to 40 00:01:23,190 --> 00:01:21,280 fundamental reality whatever that is 41 00:01:25,749 --> 00:01:23,200 essentially this channel is dedicated to 42 00:01:27,749 --> 00:01:25,759 exploring the under nature of reality 43 00:01:29,429 --> 00:01:27,759 the constitutional laws that govern it 44 00:01:31,190 --> 00:01:29,439 provided those laws exist at all and are 45 00:01:33,109 --> 00:01:31,200 even knowable to us if you enjoy 46 00:01:35,429 --> 00:01:33,119 witnessing and engaging with others on 47 00:01:38,230 --> 00:01:35,439 the topics of psychology consciousness 48 00:01:39,830 --> 00:01:38,240 physics etc the channel's themes then do 49 00:01:41,270 --> 00:01:39,840 consider going to the discord and the 50 00:01:43,190 --> 00:01:41,280 subreddit which are linked in the 51 00:01:45,749 --> 00:01:43,200 description there's also a link to the 52 00:01:47,510 --> 00:01:45,759 patreon that is patreon.com 53 00:01:49,590 --> 00:01:47,520 kurchimongo if you'd like to support 54 00:01:51,429 --> 00:01:49,600 this podcast as the patrons and the 55 00:01:53,830 --> 00:01:51,439 sponsors are the only reasons that i'm 56 00:01:55,749 --> 00:01:53,840 able to have podcasts of this quality 57 00:01:57,990 --> 00:01:55,759 and this depth given that i can do this 58 00:01:59,830 --> 00:01:58,000 now full time thanks to both the patrons 59 00:02:02,149 --> 00:01:59,840 and the sponsors support speaking of 60 00:02:04,069 --> 00:02:02,159 sponsors there are two the first sponsor 61 00:02:05,510 --> 00:02:04,079 is brilliant during the winter break i 62 00:02:07,270 --> 00:02:05,520 decided to brush up on some of the 63 00:02:09,510 --> 00:02:07,280 fundamentals of physics particularly 64 00:02:11,430 --> 00:02:09,520 with regard to information theory as i'd 65 00:02:13,030 --> 00:02:11,440 like to interview chiara marletto on 66 00:02:14,710 --> 00:02:13,040 constructor theory which is heavily 67 00:02:16,390 --> 00:02:14,720 based in information theory now 68 00:02:17,750 --> 00:02:16,400 information theory is predicated on 69 00:02:20,070 --> 00:02:17,760 entropy at least there's a fundamental 70 00:02:21,830 --> 00:02:20,080 formula for entropy so i ended up taking 71 00:02:23,910 --> 00:02:21,840 the brilliant course i challenged myself 72 00:02:25,910 --> 00:02:23,920 to do one lesson per day and i took the 73 00:02:28,229 --> 00:02:25,920 course's random variable distributions 74 00:02:29,830 --> 00:02:28,239 and knowledge slash uncertainty what i 75 00:02:31,589 --> 00:02:29,840 loved is that despite knowing the 76 00:02:33,830 --> 00:02:31,599 formula for entropy which is essentially 77 00:02:35,750 --> 00:02:33,840 hammered into you as an undergraduate it 78 00:02:37,589 --> 00:02:35,760 seems like it comes down from the sky 79 00:02:39,270 --> 00:02:37,599 arbitrarily and with brilliant for the 80 00:02:40,869 --> 00:02:39,280 first time i was able to see how the 81 00:02:43,190 --> 00:02:40,879 formula for entropy which you're seeing 82 00:02:44,949 --> 00:02:43,200 right now is actually extremely natural 83 00:02:46,869 --> 00:02:44,959 and it'd be strange to define it in any 84 00:02:48,550 --> 00:02:46,879 other manner there are plenty of courses 85 00:02:49,830 --> 00:02:48,560 and you can even learn group theory 86 00:02:51,270 --> 00:02:49,840 which is what's being referenced when 87 00:02:54,150 --> 00:02:51,280 you hear that the standard model is 88 00:02:55,750 --> 00:02:54,160 predicated on u1 cross su-2 cross su-3 89 00:02:57,830 --> 00:02:55,760 those are lead groups continuous lead 90 00:03:00,550 --> 00:02:57,840 groups visit brilliant.org 91 00:03:02,229 --> 00:03:00,560 tow t-o-e to get 20 off an annual 92 00:03:04,390 --> 00:03:02,239 subscription and i recommend that you 93 00:03:06,149 --> 00:03:04,400 don't stop before four lessons i think 94 00:03:07,910 --> 00:03:06,159 you'll be greatly surprised at the ease 95 00:03:09,750 --> 00:03:07,920 at which you can now comprehend subjects 96 00:03:12,550 --> 00:03:09,760 you previously had a difficult time 97 00:03:14,630 --> 00:03:12,560 grocking the second sponsor is algo now 98 00:03:16,630 --> 00:03:14,640 algo is an end-to-end supply chain 99 00:03:18,710 --> 00:03:16,640 optimization software company with 100 00:03:20,710 --> 00:03:18,720 software that helps business users 101 00:03:22,869 --> 00:03:20,720 optimize sales and operations planning 102 00:03:24,789 --> 00:03:22,879 to avoid stockouts reduce return and 103 00:03:27,190 --> 00:03:24,799 inventory write downs while reducing 104 00:03:30,390 --> 00:03:27,200 inventory investment it's a supply chain 105 00:03:32,470 --> 00:03:30,400 ai that drives smart roi headed by amjad 106 00:03:34,789 --> 00:03:32,480 hussein who's been a huge supporter of 107 00:03:37,830 --> 00:03:34,799 this podcast since near its inception in 108 00:03:39,750 --> 00:03:37,840 fact amjad has his own podcast on ai and 109 00:03:41,670 --> 00:03:39,760 consciousness and business growth and if 110 00:03:43,509 --> 00:03:41,680 you'd like to support the tow podcast 111 00:03:45,270 --> 00:03:43,519 then visit the link in the description 112 00:03:47,270 --> 00:03:45,280 to see amjad's podcast because 113 00:03:49,750 --> 00:03:47,280 subscribing to him or at least visiting 114 00:03:51,589 --> 00:03:49,760 supports the toe podcast indirectly 115 00:03:53,429 --> 00:03:51,599 thank you and enjoy 116 00:03:55,270 --> 00:03:53,439 so almas why don't you give an overview 117 00:03:57,670 --> 00:03:55,280 to the audience of your diamond approach 118 00:03:59,110 --> 00:03:57,680 for those who are unfamiliar with it and 119 00:04:02,390 --> 00:03:59,120 perhaps if you like you can compare and 120 00:04:04,070 --> 00:04:02,400 contrast it to advaita vedanta but you 121 00:04:07,350 --> 00:04:04,080 may have to give an example of what that 122 00:04:07,360 --> 00:04:09,670 well 123 00:04:14,789 --> 00:04:11,589 i teach a particular 124 00:04:18,789 --> 00:04:14,799 approach to 125 00:04:20,949 --> 00:04:18,799 actualizing the total human potential 126 00:04:23,270 --> 00:04:20,959 and really what we find out if we 127 00:04:25,430 --> 00:04:23,280 explore the human potential that most of 128 00:04:27,830 --> 00:04:25,440 it is 129 00:04:30,790 --> 00:04:27,840 not conscious it's not the physical and 130 00:04:31,510 --> 00:04:30,800 the emotional that's just the surface 131 00:04:35,590 --> 00:04:31,520 so 132 00:04:36,629 --> 00:04:35,600 a big part of it is the spiritual sphere 133 00:04:38,150 --> 00:04:36,639 and 134 00:04:39,670 --> 00:04:38,160 matter of spirits 135 00:04:43,189 --> 00:04:39,680 so the 136 00:04:44,310 --> 00:04:43,199 teaching is mostly about us is 137 00:04:47,030 --> 00:04:44,320 how to 138 00:04:48,710 --> 00:04:47,040 open up or to access the spiritual 139 00:04:51,990 --> 00:04:48,720 dimension 140 00:04:55,270 --> 00:04:52,000 of our reality for existence 141 00:04:57,990 --> 00:04:55,280 and in my approach i use western 142 00:05:00,390 --> 00:04:58,000 methodology like i use western 143 00:05:03,029 --> 00:05:00,400 psychology for instance i integrate that 144 00:05:04,950 --> 00:05:03,039 as part of the methodology 145 00:05:07,029 --> 00:05:04,960 of how to open up 146 00:05:08,830 --> 00:05:07,039 i use inquiry which is sort of like 147 00:05:11,830 --> 00:05:08,840 similar to socratic 148 00:05:13,909 --> 00:05:11,840 inquiry as a particular method 149 00:05:16,150 --> 00:05:13,919 that for me is more important than 150 00:05:17,830 --> 00:05:16,160 sitting meditation although we employ 151 00:05:19,749 --> 00:05:17,840 sitting meditation too of different 152 00:05:21,909 --> 00:05:19,759 kinds 153 00:05:24,790 --> 00:05:21,919 and the idea is to find out 154 00:05:27,350 --> 00:05:24,800 what the hell are we 155 00:05:30,629 --> 00:05:27,360 what's going on 156 00:05:32,710 --> 00:05:30,639 what am i what am i 157 00:05:34,150 --> 00:05:32,720 what is the word or universe what is the 158 00:05:35,749 --> 00:05:34,160 nature of the universe that's how i 159 00:05:38,150 --> 00:05:35,759 started actually why it started in 160 00:05:39,990 --> 00:05:38,160 science i want to know what is the truth 161 00:05:41,189 --> 00:05:40,000 of reality 162 00:05:42,469 --> 00:05:41,199 so i went 163 00:05:44,469 --> 00:05:42,479 very far 164 00:05:47,029 --> 00:05:44,479 as you know and studying physics and 165 00:05:49,510 --> 00:05:47,039 math until some people realize i wasn't 166 00:05:51,909 --> 00:05:49,520 getting it i wasn't that's not 167 00:05:53,830 --> 00:05:51,919 for me i wasn't getting what where i 168 00:05:55,909 --> 00:05:53,840 wanted to go i didn't know 169 00:05:58,950 --> 00:05:55,919 consciously where i wanted to go 170 00:06:00,950 --> 00:05:58,960 but as i 171 00:06:03,510 --> 00:06:00,960 got deeper into 172 00:06:06,629 --> 00:06:03,520 physics and also 173 00:06:08,390 --> 00:06:06,639 conversing with scientists and 174 00:06:11,270 --> 00:06:08,400 i realized that 175 00:06:14,070 --> 00:06:11,280 it's a it's uh the approach is 176 00:06:15,990 --> 00:06:14,080 good wonderful and very useful i'm 177 00:06:18,390 --> 00:06:16,000 interested in it i love it all of that 178 00:06:22,150 --> 00:06:18,400 and i was good at it 179 00:06:25,430 --> 00:06:22,160 it it was from here up 180 00:06:28,070 --> 00:06:25,440 you know didn't include the heart 181 00:06:30,790 --> 00:06:28,080 didn't include the 182 00:06:33,590 --> 00:06:30,800 other capacities we have 183 00:06:37,029 --> 00:06:33,600 so the approach uses 184 00:06:40,309 --> 00:06:37,039 i use i said uses inquiry but uses the 185 00:06:44,790 --> 00:06:40,319 scientific methods in some kind of way 186 00:06:48,390 --> 00:06:44,800 which means i have it has to be verified 187 00:06:49,909 --> 00:06:48,400 not by experiment as done in physics but 188 00:06:52,550 --> 00:06:49,919 by experience 189 00:06:53,670 --> 00:06:52,560 but one's own direct experience not what 190 00:06:56,230 --> 00:06:53,680 i hear 191 00:06:57,589 --> 00:06:56,240 not what i learn from teaching what i 192 00:06:59,110 --> 00:06:57,599 can verify 193 00:07:02,629 --> 00:06:59,120 and repeatedly 194 00:07:04,469 --> 00:07:02,639 and then can verify in other people 195 00:07:06,469 --> 00:07:04,479 and other people to 196 00:07:08,150 --> 00:07:06,479 which at the beginning were my friends 197 00:07:11,909 --> 00:07:08,160 my students 198 00:07:13,990 --> 00:07:11,919 was that the teaching was developing 199 00:07:16,390 --> 00:07:14,000 so and but it is 200 00:07:17,990 --> 00:07:16,400 what uh what developed is a certain 201 00:07:20,870 --> 00:07:18,000 perspective 202 00:07:23,430 --> 00:07:20,880 about the spiritual dimension 203 00:07:24,629 --> 00:07:23,440 that the spiritual dimension is not just 204 00:07:27,589 --> 00:07:24,639 one thing 205 00:07:29,430 --> 00:07:27,599 it's not like experience consciousness 206 00:07:31,029 --> 00:07:29,440 and you know what consciousness is and 207 00:07:33,909 --> 00:07:31,039 that's it 208 00:07:34,950 --> 00:07:33,919 you see at veda vedanta for instance 209 00:07:36,710 --> 00:07:34,960 is 210 00:07:39,350 --> 00:07:36,720 [Music] 211 00:07:40,950 --> 00:07:39,360 teaching about realization of pure 212 00:07:42,870 --> 00:07:40,960 consciousness 213 00:07:46,070 --> 00:07:42,880 to recognize that 214 00:07:50,469 --> 00:07:46,080 one is that one's true self 215 00:07:54,309 --> 00:07:52,790 that 216 00:07:56,790 --> 00:07:54,319 has no limits 217 00:07:59,830 --> 00:07:56,800 no size no shape 218 00:08:02,550 --> 00:07:59,840 and that it is also the nature of 219 00:08:05,830 --> 00:08:03,350 and 220 00:08:08,790 --> 00:08:05,840 that is part of the teaching i i give 221 00:08:11,350 --> 00:08:08,800 but my teaching is not as a little bit 222 00:08:13,430 --> 00:08:11,360 more nuanced i would say 223 00:08:16,230 --> 00:08:13,440 because that has more detail and some 224 00:08:17,110 --> 00:08:16,240 people think of it as more complex 225 00:08:18,150 --> 00:08:17,120 but 226 00:08:19,510 --> 00:08:18,160 because 227 00:08:23,830 --> 00:08:19,520 the 228 00:08:25,270 --> 00:08:23,840 just one dimension 229 00:08:26,469 --> 00:08:25,280 like consciousness for me is one 230 00:08:30,710 --> 00:08:26,479 dimension 231 00:08:33,269 --> 00:08:30,720 buddhism emphasizes 232 00:08:34,389 --> 00:08:33,279 love is another dimension 233 00:08:36,709 --> 00:08:34,399 you see 234 00:08:38,550 --> 00:08:36,719 and creative dynamism what makes things 235 00:08:39,430 --> 00:08:38,560 happen 236 00:08:40,949 --> 00:08:39,440 you see 237 00:08:43,269 --> 00:08:40,959 they don't don't they don't 238 00:08:45,190 --> 00:08:43,279 differentiate those that much i mean 239 00:08:47,030 --> 00:08:45,200 they include them in consciousness but 240 00:08:48,790 --> 00:08:47,040 sort of implicitly so 241 00:08:51,269 --> 00:08:48,800 i differentiate into different 242 00:08:52,310 --> 00:08:51,279 dimensions and then those dimensions can 243 00:08:54,949 --> 00:08:52,320 also 244 00:08:56,070 --> 00:08:54,959 express themselves in human experience 245 00:08:57,990 --> 00:08:56,080 and the physics 246 00:08:59,590 --> 00:08:58,000 as particular what i call spiritual 247 00:09:02,870 --> 00:08:59,600 qualities 248 00:09:04,470 --> 00:09:02,880 quality of 249 00:09:07,110 --> 00:09:04,480 clarity 250 00:09:10,389 --> 00:09:07,120 the quality of compassion 251 00:09:13,750 --> 00:09:10,399 uh quality of sincerity 252 00:09:15,509 --> 00:09:13,760 the quality of uh 253 00:09:17,590 --> 00:09:15,519 will 254 00:09:19,350 --> 00:09:17,600 you see steadfastness 255 00:09:22,470 --> 00:09:19,360 and there are many of those qualities i 256 00:09:24,630 --> 00:09:22,480 know at least 40 or 50 of those i i 257 00:09:26,070 --> 00:09:24,640 don't think i know all of them 258 00:09:27,590 --> 00:09:26,080 they're similar to what's called the 259 00:09:30,150 --> 00:09:27,600 platonic 260 00:09:33,110 --> 00:09:30,160 ideas you see in some sense they are the 261 00:09:35,430 --> 00:09:33,120 platonic ideas be behind 262 00:09:37,509 --> 00:09:35,440 what we know like when we say love many 263 00:09:39,670 --> 00:09:37,519 human beings experience love 264 00:09:41,829 --> 00:09:39,680 but what is the platonic idea of love 265 00:09:43,190 --> 00:09:41,839 what is the true 266 00:09:45,110 --> 00:09:43,200 spiritual 267 00:09:47,110 --> 00:09:45,120 counterpart to what a human being called 268 00:09:49,030 --> 00:09:47,120 love and turns out to be a very 269 00:09:51,430 --> 00:09:49,040 particular way of experiencing 270 00:09:52,470 --> 00:09:51,440 consciousness 271 00:09:54,790 --> 00:09:52,480 so 272 00:09:57,670 --> 00:09:54,800 my approach is basically is how to learn 273 00:10:00,310 --> 00:09:57,680 about the spiritual qualities which make 274 00:10:01,350 --> 00:10:00,320 us be able to connect to the spiritual 275 00:10:03,990 --> 00:10:01,360 sphere 276 00:10:05,590 --> 00:10:04,000 which in my work the emphasis is in 277 00:10:07,430 --> 00:10:05,600 presence and 278 00:10:09,829 --> 00:10:07,440 ontological present 279 00:10:12,550 --> 00:10:09,839 the presence of consciousness 280 00:10:13,910 --> 00:10:12,560 not just conscious as uh function of 281 00:10:16,069 --> 00:10:13,920 consciousness as the presence the 282 00:10:19,190 --> 00:10:16,079 beingness of it 283 00:10:22,230 --> 00:10:19,200 and then 284 00:10:27,190 --> 00:10:22,240 connection to the more of the non-dual 285 00:10:31,269 --> 00:10:28,630 and then 286 00:10:34,630 --> 00:10:31,279 recognize the non-dual has more nuances 287 00:10:37,269 --> 00:10:34,640 and and then connecting the non-dual 288 00:10:39,590 --> 00:10:37,279 with the ordinary life how is it 289 00:10:41,509 --> 00:10:39,600 how how would we leave if we are if i'm 290 00:10:43,110 --> 00:10:41,519 infinite consciousness how do i live a 291 00:10:45,670 --> 00:10:43,120 human life 292 00:10:49,030 --> 00:10:45,680 what lives and how do i live 293 00:10:54,470 --> 00:10:51,190 a big part of the spiritual 294 00:10:57,910 --> 00:10:54,480 realization of most teachings you see 295 00:11:01,590 --> 00:10:57,920 and so i teach that too i work with that 296 00:11:04,710 --> 00:11:01,600 but then i i leave the door open 297 00:11:06,150 --> 00:11:04,720 for uh the spiritual universe to reveal 298 00:11:08,150 --> 00:11:06,160 other possibilities because there are 299 00:11:09,350 --> 00:11:08,160 other possibilities of knowing reality 300 00:11:11,990 --> 00:11:09,360 for instance 301 00:11:14,550 --> 00:11:12,000 which really go into it takes us back 302 00:11:15,990 --> 00:11:14,560 similar to some of the physics quantum 303 00:11:17,590 --> 00:11:16,000 theory 304 00:11:21,430 --> 00:11:17,600 you know 305 00:11:25,590 --> 00:11:23,269 well 306 00:11:29,670 --> 00:11:25,600 let me 307 00:11:32,790 --> 00:11:31,910 if you have 308 00:11:47,110 --> 00:11:32,800 a 309 00:11:49,110 --> 00:11:47,120 experiences emptiness is 310 00:11:51,269 --> 00:11:49,120 the spacious emptiness 311 00:11:53,350 --> 00:11:51,279 is what i experience it is the 312 00:11:56,790 --> 00:11:53,360 fundamental ground 313 00:11:59,990 --> 00:11:56,800 the advaita without the person said 314 00:12:05,030 --> 00:12:02,629 nature of reality is pure consciousness 315 00:12:06,389 --> 00:12:05,040 this is conscious of itself 316 00:12:08,710 --> 00:12:06,399 and it's not emptiness it's 317 00:12:10,710 --> 00:12:08,720 characterized by being 318 00:12:13,110 --> 00:12:10,720 while the buddhists say characterized by 319 00:12:16,870 --> 00:12:13,120 non-being 320 00:12:18,870 --> 00:12:16,880 now they're both right in my perspective 321 00:12:20,790 --> 00:12:18,880 but each one of them says this is the 322 00:12:24,870 --> 00:12:20,800 ultimate 323 00:12:25,990 --> 00:12:24,880 so how can they be both alternate 324 00:12:27,829 --> 00:12:26,000 and 325 00:12:30,150 --> 00:12:27,839 in my exploration i find out that 326 00:12:31,990 --> 00:12:30,160 they're both correct 327 00:12:33,030 --> 00:12:32,000 however 328 00:12:36,310 --> 00:12:33,040 if 329 00:12:38,870 --> 00:12:36,320 what is really there is the ultimate 330 00:12:42,389 --> 00:12:38,880 fundamental truth how come people 331 00:12:44,790 --> 00:12:42,399 experience it so differently 332 00:12:46,310 --> 00:12:44,800 and so my 333 00:12:49,190 --> 00:12:46,320 through my own 334 00:12:52,069 --> 00:12:49,200 spiritual investigation the tradition 335 00:12:53,110 --> 00:12:52,079 and my experience and 336 00:12:54,150 --> 00:12:53,120 is that 337 00:13:04,150 --> 00:12:54,160 the 338 00:13:05,910 --> 00:13:04,160 different people can experience it 339 00:13:08,389 --> 00:13:05,920 differently there are different ways 340 00:13:10,710 --> 00:13:08,399 reality reality manifests 341 00:13:12,870 --> 00:13:10,720 so the experiencer 342 00:13:14,310 --> 00:13:12,880 is what makes reality appear in a 343 00:13:16,790 --> 00:13:14,320 certain way 344 00:13:19,030 --> 00:13:16,800 that brings us to quantum theory 345 00:13:20,790 --> 00:13:19,040 you see the experience that is needed 346 00:13:26,870 --> 00:13:20,800 for the 347 00:13:29,910 --> 00:13:26,880 to manifest in a certain way 348 00:13:32,949 --> 00:13:29,920 before that we don't know what it is 349 00:13:35,030 --> 00:13:32,959 so the observer that's what 350 00:13:37,910 --> 00:13:35,040 quantum theory says 351 00:13:40,069 --> 00:13:37,920 here you know it is the experience 352 00:13:41,670 --> 00:13:40,079 similar to that but the experiencer is 353 00:13:44,949 --> 00:13:41,680 experiencing 354 00:13:47,189 --> 00:13:44,959 inward reality instead of experimenting 355 00:13:49,829 --> 00:13:47,199 observing something external 356 00:13:53,030 --> 00:13:49,839 so i i 357 00:13:55,829 --> 00:13:53,040 i look at the spiritual realization as 358 00:13:58,870 --> 00:13:55,839 i have what's called the quantum theory 359 00:14:01,590 --> 00:13:58,880 of spirituality 360 00:14:05,030 --> 00:14:03,829 that the spiritual 361 00:14:06,949 --> 00:14:05,040 truth 362 00:14:09,990 --> 00:14:06,959 is indeterminate 363 00:14:12,470 --> 00:14:10,000 until we experience it 364 00:14:16,389 --> 00:14:12,480 and how we experience it depending it 365 00:14:17,670 --> 00:14:16,399 depends on our world view our view of 366 00:14:19,829 --> 00:14:17,680 reality 367 00:14:25,110 --> 00:14:19,839 depends on our expectation but it 368 00:14:30,069 --> 00:14:27,750 so that for me explains many traditions 369 00:14:30,870 --> 00:14:30,079 while there are so many traditions you 370 00:14:33,590 --> 00:14:30,880 know 371 00:14:35,269 --> 00:14:33,600 different kind of teachings 372 00:14:37,670 --> 00:14:35,279 can you give me an example of this 373 00:14:39,750 --> 00:14:37,680 inquiry process this socratic process 374 00:14:41,990 --> 00:14:39,760 and then also why do you say that in 375 00:14:47,829 --> 00:14:42,000 your approach it holds more of a 376 00:14:53,030 --> 00:14:51,030 okay i mean i see me i mean i understand 377 00:14:55,670 --> 00:14:53,040 meditation that's how i started myself 378 00:14:59,509 --> 00:14:55,680 learning different kind of meditations 379 00:15:01,670 --> 00:14:59,519 buddhism indian and sufi meditations 380 00:15:06,389 --> 00:15:01,680 but 381 00:15:08,629 --> 00:15:06,399 the way my own experience opened up 382 00:15:10,829 --> 00:15:08,639 is by 383 00:15:13,269 --> 00:15:10,839 knowing my experience in the 384 00:15:15,509 --> 00:15:13,279 moment and 385 00:15:19,030 --> 00:15:15,519 being interested to understand it what 386 00:15:21,910 --> 00:15:19,040 is it what is its meaning 387 00:15:24,829 --> 00:15:21,920 what's it about where does it come from 388 00:15:26,870 --> 00:15:24,839 so that becomes an inquiry 389 00:15:29,590 --> 00:15:26,880 into uh 390 00:15:31,269 --> 00:15:29,600 present experience meditation is not 391 00:15:33,189 --> 00:15:31,279 focused on experience meditation is 392 00:15:35,829 --> 00:15:33,199 focused like the concentration like in 393 00:15:37,990 --> 00:15:35,839 the tibetan you visualize something 394 00:15:39,350 --> 00:15:38,000 and that veda vidante you say it's not 395 00:15:41,350 --> 00:15:39,360 this not this 396 00:15:45,110 --> 00:15:41,360 and i say no it's not nothing i want to 397 00:15:47,670 --> 00:15:45,120 know this what why is it here 398 00:15:49,749 --> 00:15:47,680 what makes it be here what's it about 399 00:15:52,710 --> 00:15:49,759 so i can start with any experience like 400 00:15:55,910 --> 00:15:52,720 an experience of being irritated or a 401 00:15:55,920 --> 00:16:00,629 hopeful of something or experience of 402 00:16:03,990 --> 00:16:02,949 inner joyfulness or experience of 403 00:16:07,030 --> 00:16:04,000 sadness 404 00:16:09,670 --> 00:16:07,040 and by by getting injured by feeling it 405 00:16:11,829 --> 00:16:09,680 fully as fully as possible which 406 00:16:14,710 --> 00:16:11,839 requires the development of many 407 00:16:17,350 --> 00:16:14,720 capacities actually because experiencing 408 00:16:18,389 --> 00:16:17,360 something fully is not as simple as most 409 00:16:21,110 --> 00:16:18,399 people 410 00:16:23,030 --> 00:16:21,120 can't experience things fully 411 00:16:26,069 --> 00:16:23,040 most people experience things somewhat 412 00:16:28,470 --> 00:16:26,079 mentally somewhat emotionally 413 00:16:30,790 --> 00:16:28,480 fully i mean your your body is 414 00:16:34,150 --> 00:16:30,800 sensitized completely open your heart is 415 00:16:36,870 --> 00:16:34,160 open your mind capacities are open and 416 00:16:38,550 --> 00:16:36,880 developed and all that so 417 00:16:42,310 --> 00:16:38,560 but you know there are degrees of 418 00:16:45,189 --> 00:16:42,320 capacity for degrees of how capable we 419 00:16:48,550 --> 00:16:45,199 are in engaging this inquiry depending 420 00:16:50,550 --> 00:16:48,560 how open we are how developed we are 421 00:16:52,069 --> 00:16:50,560 but it could begin in the simplest way 422 00:16:53,829 --> 00:16:52,079 by saying well 423 00:16:55,829 --> 00:16:53,839 today i'm feeling 424 00:16:57,110 --> 00:16:55,839 somewhat um 425 00:17:05,029 --> 00:16:57,120 discouraged 426 00:17:05,909 --> 00:17:05,039 over 427 00:17:07,350 --> 00:17:05,919 right 428 00:17:10,710 --> 00:17:07,360 the scene 429 00:17:12,069 --> 00:17:10,720 goes from one thing to another okay 430 00:17:14,630 --> 00:17:12,079 i'm feeling just scary because the 431 00:17:17,270 --> 00:17:14,640 pandemic is not really all just the 432 00:17:19,510 --> 00:17:17,280 pandemic and fun 433 00:17:22,150 --> 00:17:19,520 not just that 434 00:17:26,150 --> 00:17:22,160 that is part of it but then i realized 435 00:17:29,909 --> 00:17:26,160 i'm discouraged because i feel i still 436 00:17:31,750 --> 00:17:29,919 don't feel completely fulfilled 437 00:17:34,310 --> 00:17:31,760 you know i mean it's true there's a 438 00:17:36,470 --> 00:17:34,320 pandemic i can't see some of my friends 439 00:17:39,350 --> 00:17:36,480 and family but there is something inside 440 00:17:41,830 --> 00:17:39,360 me that is not complete 441 00:17:43,990 --> 00:17:41,840 and then i'm inquiring to what is this 442 00:17:45,510 --> 00:17:44,000 feeling we're not being complete not 443 00:17:47,190 --> 00:17:45,520 being fulfilled 444 00:17:48,950 --> 00:17:47,200 now this talking back and forth to 445 00:17:50,630 --> 00:17:48,960 oneself this reminds me of the 446 00:17:52,470 --> 00:17:50,640 relationship a patient may have to a 447 00:17:54,549 --> 00:17:52,480 therapist except one is having it with 448 00:17:56,710 --> 00:17:54,559 oneself and i know that you've said that 449 00:17:58,150 --> 00:17:56,720 you take plenty of inspiration from the 450 00:18:00,549 --> 00:17:58,160 depth psychologist so is this what 451 00:18:03,270 --> 00:18:00,559 you're referring to 452 00:18:05,909 --> 00:18:03,280 we see the cycle it's similar hasn't it 453 00:18:09,029 --> 00:18:05,919 similarity to psychology 454 00:18:11,990 --> 00:18:09,039 but you see a psychologist 455 00:18:14,549 --> 00:18:12,000 wants to heal the patient 456 00:18:16,549 --> 00:18:14,559 here i'm not trying to heal someone i'm 457 00:18:18,390 --> 00:18:16,559 trying to understand it i'm interested 458 00:18:19,909 --> 00:18:18,400 in knowing what it is 459 00:18:21,669 --> 00:18:19,919 i'm not interested in getting rid of the 460 00:18:23,909 --> 00:18:21,679 problem 461 00:18:26,070 --> 00:18:23,919 and are you trying to understand it 462 00:18:28,230 --> 00:18:26,080 without an emotion attached to it or are 463 00:18:30,470 --> 00:18:28,240 you trying to understand it so that 464 00:18:32,390 --> 00:18:30,480 you're happier or so that like what is 465 00:18:34,390 --> 00:18:32,400 the emotion with the understanding are 466 00:18:35,990 --> 00:18:34,400 you supposed to look at it as if it's 467 00:18:38,150 --> 00:18:36,000 words on a paper so that is more 468 00:18:40,549 --> 00:18:38,160 clinically are you supposed to identify 469 00:18:45,110 --> 00:18:43,909 neither of those is complete engagement 470 00:18:48,470 --> 00:18:45,120 in it 471 00:18:52,230 --> 00:18:48,480 you see that's the thing about uh 472 00:18:55,830 --> 00:18:52,240 what brings my perspective of science 473 00:18:57,750 --> 00:18:55,840 is that in in the science 474 00:18:59,990 --> 00:18:57,760 you have to be detached from the 475 00:19:02,070 --> 00:19:00,000 experiment you can't be 476 00:19:03,350 --> 00:19:02,080 you know part of it either the observer 477 00:19:04,390 --> 00:19:03,360 has to be 478 00:19:06,390 --> 00:19:04,400 uh 479 00:19:09,909 --> 00:19:06,400 the more detached the more and engage 480 00:19:13,510 --> 00:19:09,919 the more the experiment is pure you see 481 00:19:16,549 --> 00:19:13,520 and the inquiry in oneself 482 00:19:19,990 --> 00:19:16,559 it includes the subject the observer 483 00:19:22,549 --> 00:19:20,000 so i'm inquiring in both the experiencer 484 00:19:24,950 --> 00:19:22,559 and the experienced 485 00:19:27,909 --> 00:19:24,960 you see they're both there in the field 486 00:19:29,990 --> 00:19:27,919 of experience because and um 487 00:19:32,390 --> 00:19:30,000 so to to really 488 00:19:36,310 --> 00:19:32,400 because inquiring it to oneself and 489 00:19:38,630 --> 00:19:36,320 inquiring into the subject basically 490 00:19:40,230 --> 00:19:38,640 and so as part of it is 491 00:19:41,990 --> 00:19:40,240 psychological 492 00:19:45,430 --> 00:19:42,000 part of it comes from the socratic 493 00:19:47,590 --> 00:19:45,440 method if you remember socrates 494 00:19:50,390 --> 00:19:47,600 would bring his 495 00:19:52,870 --> 00:19:50,400 students and ask them 496 00:19:55,350 --> 00:19:52,880 what is courage 497 00:19:56,789 --> 00:19:55,360 and he says i don't know let's find out 498 00:19:58,950 --> 00:19:56,799 what is courage 499 00:20:00,789 --> 00:19:58,960 why are they exploring courage not 500 00:20:02,470 --> 00:20:00,799 because they want to be courageous they 501 00:20:04,789 --> 00:20:02,480 want to first find out what it is do 502 00:20:07,510 --> 00:20:04,799 they do i know it or don't i know it if 503 00:20:10,630 --> 00:20:07,520 i know it what's it like 504 00:20:13,430 --> 00:20:10,640 so that's that's a socratic part here 505 00:20:16,870 --> 00:20:13,440 so it is not it's not aim 506 00:20:18,470 --> 00:20:16,880 yeah it's not aim not aim oriented 507 00:20:19,750 --> 00:20:18,480 so because the 508 00:20:21,909 --> 00:20:19,760 impetus 509 00:20:22,950 --> 00:20:21,919 and this teaching 510 00:20:23,909 --> 00:20:22,960 is not 511 00:20:29,029 --> 00:20:23,919 the 512 00:20:31,510 --> 00:20:29,039 it's not a matter of being free from 513 00:20:34,710 --> 00:20:31,520 suffering or from problem 514 00:20:38,070 --> 00:20:34,720 but it is love for the truth 515 00:20:39,750 --> 00:20:38,080 love to know the truth as completely as 516 00:20:41,350 --> 00:20:39,760 fully as possible 517 00:20:43,750 --> 00:20:41,360 earlier when you were referencing that 518 00:20:45,750 --> 00:20:43,760 the buddhist may emphasize emptiness and 519 00:20:47,110 --> 00:20:45,760 then someone else may emphasize pure 520 00:20:49,430 --> 00:20:47,120 consciousness and someone else may 521 00:20:52,310 --> 00:20:49,440 emphasize love and so on and so on are 522 00:20:53,909 --> 00:20:52,320 these all unified in some manner 523 00:20:55,590 --> 00:20:53,919 they're unified in this and they're all 524 00:20:57,750 --> 00:20:55,600 coming from 525 00:21:00,630 --> 00:20:57,760 the same place 526 00:21:03,430 --> 00:21:00,640 but not unified you see some 527 00:21:05,750 --> 00:21:03,440 advaita vedantiform they think they're 528 00:21:07,669 --> 00:21:05,760 unified because they're all 529 00:21:09,270 --> 00:21:07,679 consciousness they're all consciousness 530 00:21:11,190 --> 00:21:09,280 and all you know 531 00:21:12,630 --> 00:21:11,200 manifestative consciousness and that 532 00:21:13,830 --> 00:21:12,640 emptiness is 533 00:21:15,750 --> 00:21:13,840 one of the manifestation of 534 00:21:17,350 --> 00:21:15,760 consciousness we just would disagree 535 00:21:18,950 --> 00:21:17,360 with that will think consciousness 536 00:21:21,430 --> 00:21:18,960 arises out 537 00:21:23,270 --> 00:21:21,440 of emptiness you see 538 00:21:25,590 --> 00:21:23,280 my understanding of it 539 00:21:27,430 --> 00:21:25,600 is that the actual truth is 540 00:21:29,510 --> 00:21:27,440 indeterminate 541 00:21:31,909 --> 00:21:29,520 just like quantum theory until you 542 00:21:35,029 --> 00:21:31,919 experience it 543 00:21:38,230 --> 00:21:35,039 it's not set when people want to want 544 00:21:40,630 --> 00:21:38,240 the certainty or the security 545 00:21:43,590 --> 00:21:40,640 of feeling the 546 00:21:46,549 --> 00:21:43,600 truth of what i am 547 00:21:48,390 --> 00:21:46,559 is here and i just need to discover it 548 00:21:50,470 --> 00:21:48,400 that is how many spiritual teachings say 549 00:21:52,230 --> 00:21:50,480 it is here you just need to open up 550 00:21:54,230 --> 00:21:52,240 waking up to it 551 00:21:57,190 --> 00:21:54,240 and my what i discovered through my 552 00:22:00,310 --> 00:21:57,200 exploration is that 553 00:22:02,630 --> 00:22:00,320 the truth is here but not manifest 554 00:22:05,510 --> 00:22:02,640 it's not just a matter of discovering it 555 00:22:08,549 --> 00:22:05,520 i need to be ready and interested and 556 00:22:10,630 --> 00:22:08,559 open and then it will appear 557 00:22:12,630 --> 00:22:10,640 where will it come from 558 00:22:15,430 --> 00:22:12,640 doesn't come from anywhere 559 00:22:21,510 --> 00:22:15,440 it just comes 560 00:22:25,510 --> 00:22:23,990 so what what is that what do we say 561 00:22:29,029 --> 00:22:25,520 where does it come from 562 00:22:30,950 --> 00:22:29,039 i say it's unknown unknowable 563 00:22:32,549 --> 00:22:30,960 now is that unknown sorry is that 564 00:22:37,430 --> 00:22:32,559 unknown unknowable 565 00:22:39,830 --> 00:22:37,440 what most religions are trying to 566 00:22:41,510 --> 00:22:39,840 conceptualize when they use the word god 567 00:22:42,870 --> 00:22:41,520 or is that different or is that does 568 00:22:44,789 --> 00:22:42,880 that predate god 569 00:22:47,350 --> 00:22:44,799 yes and the 570 00:22:49,830 --> 00:22:47,360 monotheistic tradition think 571 00:22:52,710 --> 00:22:49,840 god is unknown unknowable that's how 572 00:22:55,750 --> 00:22:52,720 christianity judaism and islam take that 573 00:22:57,270 --> 00:22:55,760 god you cannot know god as god that's 574 00:22:59,430 --> 00:22:57,280 what they say 575 00:23:00,390 --> 00:22:59,440 the mystic like the sufi is they say you 576 00:23:02,870 --> 00:23:00,400 could 577 00:23:06,390 --> 00:23:02,880 unify with god you can be one 578 00:23:07,669 --> 00:23:06,400 with god and you know the god's being 579 00:23:09,590 --> 00:23:07,679 but that doesn't mean you know 580 00:23:12,470 --> 00:23:09,600 everything about god 581 00:23:14,789 --> 00:23:12,480 so god and 582 00:23:15,909 --> 00:23:14,799 ask god from perspective god is not 583 00:23:17,909 --> 00:23:15,919 known 584 00:23:18,870 --> 00:23:17,919 i don't think of the truth myself as a 585 00:23:20,870 --> 00:23:18,880 god 586 00:23:22,710 --> 00:23:20,880 i mean maybe some people think of it as 587 00:23:25,270 --> 00:23:22,720 god i don't because god being killed us 588 00:23:27,190 --> 00:23:25,280 into the creator this and that 589 00:23:29,669 --> 00:23:27,200 and for me 590 00:23:31,110 --> 00:23:29,679 things are more interesting and subtler 591 00:23:33,270 --> 00:23:31,120 than that 592 00:23:36,310 --> 00:23:33,280 that i am something 593 00:23:37,430 --> 00:23:36,320 unknown unknowable i know i am i know 594 00:23:41,510 --> 00:23:37,440 what i am 595 00:23:43,510 --> 00:23:41,520 but i don't know i cannot say what it is 596 00:23:45,029 --> 00:23:43,520 but i can say a lot 597 00:23:47,990 --> 00:23:45,039 about myself 598 00:23:50,149 --> 00:23:48,000 that expresses that 599 00:23:52,549 --> 00:23:50,159 like awareness and consciousness and 600 00:23:55,350 --> 00:23:52,559 love and spaciousness and emptiness and 601 00:24:01,350 --> 00:23:58,630 what is the ego ideal 602 00:24:03,669 --> 00:24:01,360 yeah so that's from the book and the 603 00:24:06,230 --> 00:24:03,679 the enneagram book the ego idea 604 00:24:09,669 --> 00:24:06,240 but that's normal psychology freudian 605 00:24:11,510 --> 00:24:09,679 psychology that each ego has an ego idea 606 00:24:13,430 --> 00:24:11,520 has an ideal which means it is 607 00:24:16,630 --> 00:24:13,440 constructed around 608 00:24:18,870 --> 00:24:16,640 some kind of idea of how you want to be 609 00:24:21,510 --> 00:24:18,880 what kind of person you want to be 610 00:24:24,789 --> 00:24:21,520 what kind of life you want to have 611 00:24:28,390 --> 00:24:24,799 so your ideal is to be a sort of a 612 00:24:30,710 --> 00:24:28,400 successful person or your ideal to be 613 00:24:33,590 --> 00:24:30,720 really 614 00:24:37,269 --> 00:24:33,600 more of a helper 615 00:24:40,390 --> 00:24:37,279 idea of being authentic or original 616 00:24:42,630 --> 00:24:40,400 you see these are ideal around that that 617 00:24:43,510 --> 00:24:42,640 each ego has that 618 00:24:45,830 --> 00:24:43,520 that 619 00:24:47,269 --> 00:24:45,840 goes back all the way back to freud you 620 00:24:50,710 --> 00:24:47,279 see 621 00:24:51,750 --> 00:24:50,720 but i use it as 622 00:24:54,070 --> 00:24:51,760 when i 623 00:24:55,990 --> 00:24:54,080 work with the enneagram knowledge 624 00:24:57,590 --> 00:24:56,000 and i see the 625 00:25:00,230 --> 00:24:57,600 different types 626 00:25:02,710 --> 00:25:00,240 as each is a manifestation of a 627 00:25:04,230 --> 00:25:02,720 particular ego ideal 628 00:25:05,430 --> 00:25:04,240 what's the difference between awakening 629 00:25:08,310 --> 00:25:05,440 and realizing 630 00:25:10,230 --> 00:25:08,320 or realization 631 00:25:11,590 --> 00:25:10,240 you see many teachers won't make a 632 00:25:15,350 --> 00:25:11,600 distinction 633 00:25:16,950 --> 00:25:15,360 and 634 00:25:19,510 --> 00:25:16,960 some do 635 00:25:22,630 --> 00:25:19,520 but i'm not the only one who does 636 00:25:24,070 --> 00:25:22,640 is that what you awakening first of all 637 00:25:27,269 --> 00:25:24,080 there are different kind of awakening 638 00:25:29,750 --> 00:25:27,279 you know if you read grejie for instance 639 00:25:33,190 --> 00:25:29,760 his first awakening he says the terror 640 00:25:35,269 --> 00:25:33,200 of the moment to realize i am asleep 641 00:25:38,390 --> 00:25:35,279 i don't know who i am 642 00:25:40,310 --> 00:25:38,400 most people aren't awakened that way yet 643 00:25:42,789 --> 00:25:40,320 to know i don't know who the hell i am 644 00:25:44,149 --> 00:25:42,799 what am i what's meaning in my life why 645 00:25:46,470 --> 00:25:44,159 am i here 646 00:25:48,710 --> 00:25:46,480 that's the first awakening 647 00:25:51,190 --> 00:25:48,720 for grade the second awakening is to 648 00:25:58,310 --> 00:25:53,269 to 649 00:25:59,350 --> 00:25:58,320 but you know i'm 650 00:26:01,669 --> 00:25:59,360 pure 651 00:26:03,190 --> 00:26:01,679 spirit that is aware and conscious of 652 00:26:05,669 --> 00:26:03,200 itself 653 00:26:08,470 --> 00:26:05,679 now for me realization 654 00:26:12,470 --> 00:26:08,480 means that has become 655 00:26:14,470 --> 00:26:12,480 your true self it has become a constant 656 00:26:16,390 --> 00:26:14,480 um 657 00:26:18,230 --> 00:26:16,400 constantly integrated 658 00:26:19,990 --> 00:26:18,240 it's not just 659 00:26:22,070 --> 00:26:20,000 you know it you 660 00:26:24,549 --> 00:26:22,080 woke up to it you know you know i 661 00:26:30,390 --> 00:26:24,559 experienced it 662 00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:35,350 so you're curious about many things 663 00:26:38,549 --> 00:26:36,710 you see 664 00:26:40,549 --> 00:26:38,559 you know buddhists talk about wisdom and 665 00:26:42,149 --> 00:26:40,559 certain way 666 00:26:44,070 --> 00:26:42,159 you know but i think of it more in a 667 00:26:46,390 --> 00:26:44,080 western way wisdom 668 00:26:49,669 --> 00:26:46,400 you know and if you're a buddhist who is 669 00:26:51,909 --> 00:26:49,679 the me knowing what emptiness is 670 00:26:53,990 --> 00:26:51,919 for them they call that wisdom if you 671 00:26:55,909 --> 00:26:54,000 really know from an experience 672 00:26:56,789 --> 00:26:55,919 what is empty what is the emptiness of 673 00:26:58,630 --> 00:26:56,799 self 674 00:27:00,390 --> 00:26:58,640 what is the emptiness of everything they 675 00:27:02,950 --> 00:27:00,400 call that wisdom 676 00:27:04,549 --> 00:27:02,960 for me and wisdom is more practical 677 00:27:08,230 --> 00:27:04,559 which is 678 00:27:11,350 --> 00:27:08,240 as i know myself as i know um 679 00:27:12,070 --> 00:27:11,360 my true self or my spiritual nature or 680 00:27:14,310 --> 00:27:12,080 my 681 00:27:15,669 --> 00:27:14,320 true nature usually 682 00:27:19,990 --> 00:27:15,679 and 683 00:27:23,669 --> 00:27:22,389 not know what have integrated it 684 00:27:26,389 --> 00:27:23,679 and then 685 00:27:28,870 --> 00:27:26,399 how i live it how i live my life is 686 00:27:32,549 --> 00:27:28,880 living from that place 687 00:27:36,149 --> 00:27:32,559 live in that place 688 00:27:39,590 --> 00:27:36,159 in response to the work the world the 689 00:27:42,549 --> 00:27:39,600 world situation i find myself in 690 00:27:43,430 --> 00:27:42,559 so that my response to the situation i'm 691 00:27:44,789 --> 00:27:43,440 in 692 00:27:47,590 --> 00:27:44,799 comes 693 00:27:52,230 --> 00:27:47,600 informed and expressing 694 00:27:57,750 --> 00:27:55,029 and that becomes a spontaneous and 695 00:28:00,470 --> 00:27:57,760 natural and very appropriate 696 00:28:03,029 --> 00:28:00,480 way of dealing with the situation that 697 00:28:06,470 --> 00:28:03,039 appropriate and full way of dealing with 698 00:28:09,190 --> 00:28:06,480 situation is wisdom knowing how to deal 699 00:28:11,190 --> 00:28:09,200 with life situation from the spiritual 700 00:28:14,310 --> 00:28:11,200 perspective including spiritual 701 00:28:18,470 --> 00:28:14,320 perspective without denying the material 702 00:28:20,710 --> 00:28:18,480 perspective for me is to be wise 703 00:28:23,909 --> 00:28:20,720 that's as you know that's how 704 00:28:26,789 --> 00:28:23,919 western philosophy was the religion 705 00:28:29,029 --> 00:28:26,799 what wise president why is it not just 706 00:28:30,630 --> 00:28:29,039 you can be yourself is how you live in 707 00:28:33,990 --> 00:28:30,640 the world 708 00:28:35,990 --> 00:28:34,000 you have to live wisely 709 00:28:38,310 --> 00:28:36,000 does that make sense for you let me see 710 00:28:40,149 --> 00:28:38,320 if i'm understanding this so the second 711 00:28:42,070 --> 00:28:40,159 awakening because you refer to number 712 00:28:44,470 --> 00:28:42,080 one and number two the second awakening 713 00:28:47,190 --> 00:28:44,480 is more about the perception of a 714 00:28:49,909 --> 00:28:47,200 particular insight than realization is 715 00:28:52,230 --> 00:28:49,919 the persistence of that insight 716 00:28:54,789 --> 00:28:52,240 and then wisdom is the conformance 717 00:28:57,029 --> 00:28:54,799 between one's action and that insight 718 00:28:58,470 --> 00:28:57,039 or is in my office that's a good way of 719 00:28:59,430 --> 00:28:58,480 saying it 720 00:29:01,830 --> 00:28:59,440 yes 721 00:29:03,750 --> 00:29:01,840 but uh the only addition i will say is 722 00:29:05,750 --> 00:29:03,760 not just insight 723 00:29:07,269 --> 00:29:05,760 is being 724 00:29:10,310 --> 00:29:07,279 that 725 00:29:13,110 --> 00:29:10,320 discovery like i discover 726 00:29:15,830 --> 00:29:13,120 that my nature is a pure presence 727 00:29:17,029 --> 00:29:15,840 which is a sense of being sense of 728 00:29:19,909 --> 00:29:17,039 existence 729 00:29:21,190 --> 00:29:19,919 that does not exist in my body it's pure 730 00:29:22,789 --> 00:29:21,200 existence 731 00:29:24,230 --> 00:29:22,799 i am 732 00:29:26,950 --> 00:29:24,240 you see like 733 00:29:30,070 --> 00:29:26,960 i am but i am 734 00:29:35,669 --> 00:29:32,230 palpable sense 735 00:29:44,389 --> 00:29:38,830 public sense 736 00:29:47,750 --> 00:29:44,399 of consciousness conscious of its own 737 00:29:49,909 --> 00:29:47,760 uh being it's because consciousness is 738 00:29:51,110 --> 00:29:49,919 not a function consciousness is a 739 00:29:53,830 --> 00:29:51,120 reality 740 00:29:56,950 --> 00:29:53,840 consciousness is something that is 741 00:30:00,789 --> 00:29:56,960 and when consciousness knows itself 742 00:30:04,310 --> 00:30:00,799 awakes to itself as oh that is what i am 743 00:30:06,870 --> 00:30:04,320 i am this kind of luminous 744 00:30:09,190 --> 00:30:06,880 aware presence aware of myself and can 745 00:30:10,950 --> 00:30:09,200 be aware of other things 746 00:30:14,789 --> 00:30:10,960 that will be 747 00:30:19,350 --> 00:30:16,630 see the way that i'm wondering about 748 00:30:21,190 --> 00:30:19,360 this is akin to a tree with branches 749 00:30:23,269 --> 00:30:21,200 that all come from the same root and 750 00:30:25,590 --> 00:30:23,279 then when one says that consciousness 751 00:30:26,950 --> 00:30:25,600 realizes itself well let's imagine that 752 00:30:29,350 --> 00:30:26,960 you're an example of that i don't 753 00:30:31,190 --> 00:30:29,360 imagine that i'm an example of that so 754 00:30:32,870 --> 00:30:31,200 just because you have found that out 755 00:30:35,110 --> 00:30:32,880 even though at least in this model we're 756 00:30:37,110 --> 00:30:35,120 all part of the same route it seems 757 00:30:38,950 --> 00:30:37,120 localized to you it doesn't seem to 758 00:30:40,789 --> 00:30:38,960 spread outside of your teachings and 759 00:30:43,190 --> 00:30:40,799 helping people so the way that i'm 760 00:30:45,029 --> 00:30:43,200 visualizing it is like a branch and then 761 00:30:46,549 --> 00:30:45,039 there's a loop on that branch and that 762 00:30:48,389 --> 00:30:46,559 is what is occurring when you say 763 00:30:50,149 --> 00:30:48,399 consciousness realizes itself rather 764 00:30:51,430 --> 00:30:50,159 than when consciousness realizes itself 765 00:30:53,190 --> 00:30:51,440 another way of thinking of that is all 766 00:30:54,789 --> 00:30:53,200 these branches just intertwined at once 767 00:30:56,789 --> 00:30:54,799 but i and probably some of the people 768 00:30:58,230 --> 00:30:56,799 who are listening just because you or 769 00:31:00,389 --> 00:30:58,240 some of the other people have had 770 00:31:01,909 --> 00:31:00,399 insights or have had these realizations 771 00:31:04,070 --> 00:31:01,919 of consciousness 772 00:31:05,909 --> 00:31:04,080 realizing itself it doesn't mean they 773 00:31:08,070 --> 00:31:05,919 have like for example i don't think i've 774 00:31:10,470 --> 00:31:08,080 had it so how does that comport is it 775 00:31:12,470 --> 00:31:10,480 that it is a separate branch because i'm 776 00:31:14,070 --> 00:31:12,480 trying to understand this with the other 777 00:31:16,389 --> 00:31:14,080 teaching that we're all the same in some 778 00:31:18,470 --> 00:31:16,399 manner and so how is it that if you have 779 00:31:20,710 --> 00:31:18,480 an insight and it's i don't have that 780 00:31:22,950 --> 00:31:20,720 insight automatically 781 00:31:25,750 --> 00:31:22,960 most people don't have that insight and 782 00:31:29,029 --> 00:31:25,760 don't have the capacity for that insight 783 00:31:30,149 --> 00:31:29,039 it's not easy to have that kind of 784 00:31:31,990 --> 00:31:30,159 insight 785 00:31:35,750 --> 00:31:32,000 it it has to do with some kind of 786 00:31:37,430 --> 00:31:35,760 maturations of one's uh 787 00:31:39,509 --> 00:31:37,440 consciousness one's being on 788 00:31:41,029 --> 00:31:39,519 subjectivities 789 00:31:42,789 --> 00:31:41,039 and 790 00:31:45,190 --> 00:31:42,799 development of 791 00:31:48,470 --> 00:31:45,200 one's heart so that the heart has 792 00:31:49,990 --> 00:31:48,480 developed to the point where there is 793 00:31:52,950 --> 00:31:50,000 the natural 794 00:31:55,029 --> 00:31:52,960 desire to know what i am 795 00:31:56,950 --> 00:31:55,039 that becomes a force 796 00:31:58,710 --> 00:31:56,960 that opens up things 797 00:32:02,149 --> 00:31:58,720 and most people are 798 00:32:04,230 --> 00:32:02,159 are more busy with survival and 799 00:32:07,669 --> 00:32:04,240 jobs and families you know they don't 800 00:32:10,710 --> 00:32:07,679 have the opportunity to or 801 00:32:12,070 --> 00:32:10,720 enhance even the interest to devote to 802 00:32:15,269 --> 00:32:12,080 this kind of 803 00:32:17,990 --> 00:32:15,279 exploration so it is a very specialized 804 00:32:20,389 --> 00:32:18,000 thing in some sense that's why 805 00:32:23,269 --> 00:32:20,399 you know all around the world people who 806 00:32:26,630 --> 00:32:23,279 realize they're not that many the few 807 00:32:29,350 --> 00:32:26,640 you know and um 808 00:32:30,710 --> 00:32:29,360 because but it is a potential for all of 809 00:32:37,430 --> 00:32:30,720 us 810 00:32:40,149 --> 00:32:37,440 have the same nature 811 00:32:41,029 --> 00:32:40,159 and that's one thing when insight we we 812 00:32:43,350 --> 00:32:41,039 learn 813 00:32:44,710 --> 00:32:43,360 when i discover i remember you know 814 00:32:47,350 --> 00:32:44,720 years ago 815 00:32:50,389 --> 00:32:47,360 when i first discovered the 816 00:32:51,750 --> 00:32:50,399 experience presence oh i am i am i know 817 00:32:55,269 --> 00:32:51,760 what i am 818 00:33:00,549 --> 00:32:58,149 connected to all human beings 819 00:33:03,190 --> 00:33:00,559 i felt i am as this 820 00:33:04,789 --> 00:33:03,200 conscious presence i'm connected with 821 00:33:06,149 --> 00:33:04,799 all human beings because all human 822 00:33:07,909 --> 00:33:06,159 beings are 823 00:33:10,230 --> 00:33:07,919 have that same 824 00:33:11,830 --> 00:33:10,240 presence the same 825 00:33:14,389 --> 00:33:11,840 inherent 826 00:33:16,710 --> 00:33:14,399 uh truth to them 827 00:33:18,310 --> 00:33:16,720 so that showed me potential for 828 00:33:23,350 --> 00:33:18,320 everybody 829 00:33:27,350 --> 00:33:23,360 at some point you know if they dedicate 830 00:33:29,909 --> 00:33:27,360 themselves to it or they happen to be 831 00:33:32,630 --> 00:33:29,919 somewhat open or mature or have had the 832 00:33:37,750 --> 00:33:32,640 right influence in their life you know 833 00:33:40,230 --> 00:33:39,190 you're right that 834 00:33:44,070 --> 00:33:40,240 you know 835 00:33:45,669 --> 00:33:44,080 just because i say this is my experience 836 00:33:48,149 --> 00:33:45,679 that's right that doesn't mean i'm 837 00:33:49,990 --> 00:33:48,159 assuming others experiencing that way so 838 00:33:51,350 --> 00:33:50,000 everyone does have the capacity or not 839 00:33:53,590 --> 00:33:51,360 everyone does 840 00:33:55,669 --> 00:33:53,600 everybody has the potential 841 00:33:57,590 --> 00:33:55,679 but not the capacity not necessarily the 842 00:33:59,509 --> 00:33:57,600 capacity you know what's the difference 843 00:34:02,230 --> 00:33:59,519 between those two 844 00:34:06,389 --> 00:34:02,240 potential is 845 00:34:10,629 --> 00:34:06,399 is what you are capacity is capacity of 846 00:34:12,470 --> 00:34:10,639 perception capacity of subtle perception 847 00:34:14,790 --> 00:34:12,480 and different kind of 848 00:34:16,629 --> 00:34:14,800 perception different kind of way 849 00:34:18,310 --> 00:34:16,639 different kind of consciousness that 850 00:34:20,389 --> 00:34:18,320 than we know 851 00:34:23,109 --> 00:34:20,399 most human being are aware of 852 00:34:26,149 --> 00:34:23,119 consciousness and i see and hear and 853 00:34:31,190 --> 00:34:26,159 have emotions and sensation all of that 854 00:34:37,829 --> 00:34:34,790 you know perceptual uh 855 00:34:40,149 --> 00:34:37,839 organs have their spiritual counterpart 856 00:34:43,109 --> 00:34:40,159 which i call subtle counterpart there's 857 00:34:45,270 --> 00:34:43,119 inner seeing there's inner sensing 858 00:34:46,230 --> 00:34:45,280 there's inner feeling that is not 859 00:34:49,430 --> 00:34:46,240 thought 860 00:34:51,190 --> 00:34:49,440 those are the outer expression of it 861 00:34:53,190 --> 00:34:51,200 so one can 862 00:34:55,030 --> 00:34:53,200 some of us have some of those subtle 863 00:34:56,470 --> 00:34:55,040 things but we're not aware of them so we 864 00:34:59,270 --> 00:34:56,480 don't employ them 865 00:35:01,190 --> 00:34:59,280 but some it requires development and and 866 00:35:03,270 --> 00:35:01,200 that is what what i see the wrong 867 00:35:07,030 --> 00:35:03,280 meditation 868 00:35:09,589 --> 00:35:07,040 those capacities 869 00:35:11,510 --> 00:35:09,599 should everyone have these realizations 870 00:35:14,069 --> 00:35:11,520 like if you had a magic wand and you can 871 00:35:15,990 --> 00:35:14,079 wave it do you think it's for everyone 872 00:35:18,310 --> 00:35:16,000 or do you think it's for certain people 873 00:35:20,310 --> 00:35:18,320 at a certain time or perhaps not for a 874 00:35:22,950 --> 00:35:20,320 particular person at any time 875 00:35:24,870 --> 00:35:22,960 the reason behind this question is that 876 00:35:26,870 --> 00:35:24,880 i'm sure you've seen this in some 877 00:35:28,950 --> 00:35:26,880 spiritual teachers they think that 878 00:35:31,990 --> 00:35:28,960 everyone should be enlightened awakened 879 00:35:33,670 --> 00:35:32,000 and they may even use words like 880 00:35:35,030 --> 00:35:33,680 like you've used with development though 881 00:35:37,430 --> 00:35:35,040 i don't think you meant it in this way 882 00:35:39,990 --> 00:35:37,440 but as if the enlightened is higher than 883 00:35:41,510 --> 00:35:40,000 someone else which then implies a 884 00:35:43,430 --> 00:35:41,520 looking down at people who aren't 885 00:35:45,910 --> 00:35:43,440 enlightened 886 00:35:49,109 --> 00:35:45,920 well i mean spiritual teaching all 887 00:35:50,790 --> 00:35:49,119 they have a teaching to help people to 888 00:35:53,910 --> 00:35:50,800 access 889 00:35:54,950 --> 00:35:53,920 a realm of reality that they're usually 890 00:35:56,310 --> 00:35:54,960 not 891 00:35:58,310 --> 00:35:56,320 accessing 892 00:35:59,990 --> 00:35:58,320 so obviously they think it's there's a 893 00:36:02,470 --> 00:36:00,000 value in that 894 00:36:04,710 --> 00:36:02,480 and and having that openness that's 895 00:36:06,870 --> 00:36:04,720 capacity for 896 00:36:08,870 --> 00:36:06,880 subtle access 897 00:36:11,750 --> 00:36:08,880 and uh but 898 00:36:13,030 --> 00:36:11,760 i wouldn't say that any teaching will 899 00:36:15,270 --> 00:36:13,040 will say 900 00:36:18,470 --> 00:36:15,280 everybody should 901 00:36:20,790 --> 00:36:18,480 it's not matter should it's more like 902 00:36:23,030 --> 00:36:20,800 it's possible or everybody everybody has 903 00:36:25,510 --> 00:36:23,040 a possibility 904 00:36:28,390 --> 00:36:25,520 when it will happen for somebody 905 00:36:31,910 --> 00:36:28,400 it's something magical something sort of 906 00:36:33,349 --> 00:36:31,920 uh like a destiny of sort 907 00:36:34,310 --> 00:36:33,359 so 908 00:36:45,349 --> 00:36:34,320 i 909 00:36:47,670 --> 00:36:45,359 human because really 910 00:36:49,990 --> 00:36:47,680 uh that's another point that's important 911 00:36:51,910 --> 00:36:50,000 occurred which is the more we are in 912 00:36:55,030 --> 00:36:51,920 touch with our spiritual dimension the 913 00:36:57,750 --> 00:36:55,040 more human we are you see people don't 914 00:37:00,390 --> 00:36:57,760 know that most people know think i am 915 00:37:02,950 --> 00:37:00,400 human i i am human because i have a body 916 00:37:05,109 --> 00:37:02,960 human body i have a human emotion i can 917 00:37:06,310 --> 00:37:05,119 think or i'm rational that makes me 918 00:37:08,630 --> 00:37:06,320 human 919 00:37:11,910 --> 00:37:08,640 for the sufis for instance they say no 920 00:37:14,550 --> 00:37:11,920 no that's not human yet 921 00:37:15,829 --> 00:37:14,560 to be truly human you have to have true 922 00:37:17,750 --> 00:37:15,839 hearts 923 00:37:20,390 --> 00:37:17,760 which mean a heart that can converse 924 00:37:23,829 --> 00:37:20,400 with the divine 925 00:37:27,109 --> 00:37:23,839 that makes me human a human you see 926 00:37:32,710 --> 00:37:27,119 for the sufis is the bridge between the 927 00:37:37,750 --> 00:37:35,270 and if you're not that bridge yet you're 928 00:37:41,589 --> 00:37:37,760 sort of on the way to being human but 929 00:37:49,430 --> 00:37:45,109 so uh many people 930 00:37:53,829 --> 00:37:51,910 gradation or or 931 00:37:56,790 --> 00:37:53,839 one is better than other it's more like 932 00:37:58,950 --> 00:37:56,800 a natural process like evolution 933 00:38:00,390 --> 00:37:58,960 you know evolution happens in different 934 00:38:02,310 --> 00:38:00,400 ways and 935 00:38:04,390 --> 00:38:02,320 different areas and 936 00:38:08,150 --> 00:38:04,400 different different ways 937 00:38:10,150 --> 00:38:08,160 so we all human being can evolve 938 00:38:11,270 --> 00:38:10,160 you know we evolved physically and 939 00:38:14,630 --> 00:38:11,280 mentally 940 00:38:16,230 --> 00:38:14,640 we can evolve spiritually too 941 00:38:17,990 --> 00:38:16,240 and it is 942 00:38:19,910 --> 00:38:18,000 it's hard to tell where it's going to 943 00:38:22,470 --> 00:38:19,920 happen like when my students you know 944 00:38:24,950 --> 00:38:22,480 come to me i don't know which one is 945 00:38:26,310 --> 00:38:24,960 really going to go deeper than the other 946 00:38:28,310 --> 00:38:26,320 you know 947 00:38:30,470 --> 00:38:28,320 sometimes surprised for some people 948 00:38:32,790 --> 00:38:30,480 after a while they seem to be 949 00:38:34,790 --> 00:38:32,800 they can't go deeper and suddenly 950 00:38:37,430 --> 00:38:34,800 something happens and they're you know 951 00:38:39,829 --> 00:38:37,440 they surprised me how wonderful they 952 00:38:41,589 --> 00:38:39,839 seem to know themselves you know 953 00:38:43,190 --> 00:38:41,599 how in their 954 00:38:45,109 --> 00:38:43,200 start to experience themselves in a way 955 00:38:47,589 --> 00:38:45,119 that's about liberating 956 00:38:50,550 --> 00:38:47,599 so i wish it for a human being because 957 00:38:51,910 --> 00:38:50,560 it has less suffering in it 958 00:38:53,910 --> 00:38:51,920 it has 959 00:38:56,790 --> 00:38:53,920 more the 960 00:38:58,710 --> 00:38:56,800 enjoyment of discovering reality i mean 961 00:39:00,950 --> 00:38:58,720 you know you're a scientist 962 00:39:02,790 --> 00:39:00,960 you know scientists explore 963 00:39:05,030 --> 00:39:02,800 through science 964 00:39:08,550 --> 00:39:05,040 you're not exploring so i could develop 965 00:39:09,670 --> 00:39:08,560 something to sell or for because i'm 966 00:39:12,790 --> 00:39:09,680 you know 967 00:39:14,710 --> 00:39:12,800 given a grant and i have 968 00:39:17,349 --> 00:39:14,720 pure sciences like you you want to 969 00:39:19,430 --> 00:39:17,359 discover because you enjoy the discovery 970 00:39:21,510 --> 00:39:19,440 the exploration 971 00:39:23,589 --> 00:39:21,520 so 972 00:39:26,470 --> 00:39:23,599 when one is awakened 973 00:39:30,069 --> 00:39:26,480 you the discovery becomes the way we 974 00:39:32,390 --> 00:39:30,079 live our life we're having discoveries 975 00:39:34,550 --> 00:39:32,400 all the time and discover about what i 976 00:39:36,950 --> 00:39:34,560 am what is life what is it how a thing 977 00:39:39,030 --> 00:39:36,960 can be done in a way that makes it more 978 00:39:42,630 --> 00:39:39,040 real more total 979 00:39:45,589 --> 00:39:42,640 and it's wonderful way to live 980 00:39:48,710 --> 00:39:45,599 you see it brings in more dimensions to 981 00:39:50,870 --> 00:39:48,720 exist to life so definitely i wish it 982 00:39:53,109 --> 00:39:50,880 for people but i'm not think everybody 983 00:39:55,510 --> 00:39:53,119 should i mean it's up to the people 984 00:39:58,870 --> 00:39:55,520 themselves what happens inside them 985 00:40:01,829 --> 00:39:58,880 i don't for because of that in my school 986 00:40:03,190 --> 00:40:01,839 i don't go i'll try to get students 987 00:40:07,589 --> 00:40:03,200 i don't 988 00:40:08,630 --> 00:40:07,599 it's ridiculous for me to do that it's 989 00:40:10,550 --> 00:40:08,640 more like 990 00:40:12,150 --> 00:40:10,560 i just 991 00:40:14,309 --> 00:40:12,160 hear and i make 992 00:40:15,670 --> 00:40:14,319 something 993 00:40:17,910 --> 00:40:15,680 a point in 994 00:40:18,950 --> 00:40:17,920 showing that i'm here and that's what i 995 00:40:21,510 --> 00:40:18,960 do 996 00:40:22,710 --> 00:40:21,520 and who's interested will will come you 997 00:40:24,470 --> 00:40:22,720 see 998 00:40:26,790 --> 00:40:24,480 and they can learn 999 00:40:30,150 --> 00:40:26,800 what i can teach 1000 00:40:33,910 --> 00:40:32,870 so although i wish it for a human being 1001 00:40:35,670 --> 00:40:33,920 to be 1002 00:40:37,030 --> 00:40:35,680 more themself 1003 00:40:38,950 --> 00:40:37,040 more complete for everybody for 1004 00:40:41,190 --> 00:40:38,960 everybody wishes forever making me it 1005 00:40:43,750 --> 00:40:41,200 wouldn't mean they'll be happier deeper 1006 00:40:45,030 --> 00:40:43,760 more fulfilled that's what it means 1007 00:40:48,790 --> 00:40:45,040 you see 1008 00:40:51,349 --> 00:40:48,800 but do i say that everybody should 1009 00:40:53,270 --> 00:40:51,359 well some people are just that's not 1010 00:40:54,069 --> 00:40:53,280 what's happening in their life 1011 00:40:56,550 --> 00:40:54,079 they're 1012 00:40:58,550 --> 00:40:56,560 busy getting married or having kids or 1013 00:40:59,829 --> 00:40:58,560 something like that who am i to say no 1014 00:41:02,309 --> 00:40:59,839 you should 1015 00:41:04,390 --> 00:41:02,319 come here focus then meditate first you 1016 00:41:07,030 --> 00:41:04,400 know 1017 00:41:09,589 --> 00:41:07,040 standing this twin concept of we should 1018 00:41:12,309 --> 00:41:09,599 value this or sorry forget about 1019 00:41:13,750 --> 00:41:12,319 this is more valuable this approach of 1020 00:41:15,990 --> 00:41:13,760 being enlightened or realizing or 1021 00:41:18,390 --> 00:41:16,000 awakening and so on and of course and 1022 00:41:20,150 --> 00:41:18,400 being wise is more valuable but on the 1023 00:41:22,150 --> 00:41:20,160 other hand we should not or we don't 1024 00:41:24,150 --> 00:41:22,160 want to talk about should and i from my 1025 00:41:26,790 --> 00:41:24,160 cursory examination of the more eastern 1026 00:41:28,390 --> 00:41:26,800 practices it's as if they have a phobia 1027 00:41:30,069 --> 00:41:28,400 they're afraid of saying should they 1028 00:41:32,390 --> 00:41:30,079 don't want to talk about should but they 1029 00:41:34,069 --> 00:41:32,400 can talk about value and i don't to me 1030 00:41:36,870 --> 00:41:34,079 those two are tied so can you help 1031 00:41:39,670 --> 00:41:36,880 disentangle them 1032 00:41:42,230 --> 00:41:39,680 no i think most path most pressure path 1033 00:41:44,710 --> 00:41:42,240 they do have a shirt there's not they 1034 00:41:46,710 --> 00:41:44,720 don't say it as i should but they say 1035 00:41:48,470 --> 00:41:46,720 they advise people yes 1036 00:41:50,550 --> 00:41:48,480 you should you know that'll be a good 1037 00:41:51,270 --> 00:41:50,560 thing for you to do 1038 00:41:52,950 --> 00:41:51,280 but 1039 00:41:54,790 --> 00:41:52,960 usually a 1040 00:41:56,230 --> 00:41:54,800 really wise 1041 00:41:59,109 --> 00:41:56,240 teacher 1042 00:42:00,790 --> 00:41:59,119 will see when they meet people who is it 1043 00:42:04,470 --> 00:42:00,800 who it is 1044 00:42:07,270 --> 00:42:04,480 their time to learn that who isn't 1045 00:42:09,589 --> 00:42:07,280 because it's it has to do with timing it 1046 00:42:11,190 --> 00:42:09,599 has to do with circumstances 1047 00:42:13,750 --> 00:42:11,200 so 1048 00:42:15,910 --> 00:42:13,760 although it is 1049 00:42:18,069 --> 00:42:15,920 valuable but 1050 00:42:20,309 --> 00:42:18,079 the first thing has to come first people 1051 00:42:22,710 --> 00:42:20,319 have to establish a life 1052 00:42:24,870 --> 00:42:22,720 that's the hindu model as you know first 1053 00:42:27,829 --> 00:42:24,880 you become a householder you're married 1054 00:42:30,950 --> 00:42:27,839 and then you go and find the teacher 1055 00:42:32,710 --> 00:42:30,960 that's how they've done that you see 1056 00:42:35,589 --> 00:42:32,720 and not all of them because go and find 1057 00:42:39,030 --> 00:42:37,430 yes this i've heard you mentioned and i 1058 00:42:41,190 --> 00:42:39,040 happen to like it you mentioned in one 1059 00:42:42,550 --> 00:42:41,200 of your talks that most spiritual 1060 00:42:44,550 --> 00:42:42,560 teachers for lack of a better word 1061 00:42:45,589 --> 00:42:44,560 emphasize awakening and then you said 1062 00:42:47,270 --> 00:42:45,599 well what are you talking about most 1063 00:42:48,550 --> 00:42:47,280 people should feel compassion and love 1064 00:42:50,630 --> 00:42:48,560 and security 1065 00:42:52,950 --> 00:42:50,640 and to me this is an important point 1066 00:42:54,950 --> 00:42:52,960 it's one that i mentioned on not me this 1067 00:42:57,349 --> 00:42:54,960 but it's one that came up on a previous 1068 00:42:59,270 --> 00:42:57,359 episode with carl fristen and you seem 1069 00:43:01,030 --> 00:42:59,280 to be one of the teachers that i see 1070 00:43:02,150 --> 00:43:01,040 emphasize this or at least bring it up 1071 00:43:04,230 --> 00:43:02,160 though you don't call it this but this 1072 00:43:05,910 --> 00:43:04,240 notion of path dependence in physics 1073 00:43:07,589 --> 00:43:05,920 which is that it's not about this 1074 00:43:09,030 --> 00:43:07,599 destination the destination also depends 1075 00:43:10,230 --> 00:43:09,040 on where you are and then how you're 1076 00:43:12,150 --> 00:43:10,240 going to get to it in the condition of 1077 00:43:14,150 --> 00:43:12,160 the world so to make a blanket statement 1078 00:43:15,990 --> 00:43:14,160 and say one should be enlightened and so 1079 00:43:17,430 --> 00:43:16,000 on and i see this perhaps you do too 1080 00:43:19,190 --> 00:43:17,440 maybe you don't but i see this in 1081 00:43:20,870 --> 00:43:19,200 different comment sections of different 1082 00:43:23,190 --> 00:43:20,880 videos and online 1083 00:43:25,750 --> 00:43:23,200 with people saying you're already lost 1084 00:43:27,750 --> 00:43:25,760 if you are in the scientific mindset 1085 00:43:30,230 --> 00:43:27,760 you've already lost or you will never 1086 00:43:32,069 --> 00:43:30,240 realize x until you follow some path 1087 00:43:33,670 --> 00:43:32,079 that i'm telling you and 1088 00:43:34,950 --> 00:43:33,680 when i read that 1089 00:43:36,790 --> 00:43:34,960 it's not as if it's directed to me i'm 1090 00:43:38,230 --> 00:43:36,800 seeing it on other sites but when i read 1091 00:43:40,790 --> 00:43:38,240 that i see that as 1092 00:43:42,790 --> 00:43:40,800 a spiritual form of 1093 00:43:45,030 --> 00:43:42,800 it's like spiritual superciliousness or 1094 00:43:47,670 --> 00:43:45,040 arrogance where they and it also puts 1095 00:43:48,550 --> 00:43:47,680 undue pressure on people 1096 00:43:52,950 --> 00:43:48,560 to 1097 00:43:54,390 --> 00:43:52,960 perhaps perhaps one should accept 1098 00:43:56,630 --> 00:43:54,400 the the position 1099 00:43:59,270 --> 00:43:56,640 other people are and 1100 00:44:01,589 --> 00:43:59,280 i i think you i agree with you currently 1101 00:44:03,109 --> 00:44:01,599 but i think 1102 00:44:04,870 --> 00:44:03,119 some of those stories are taken out of 1103 00:44:06,550 --> 00:44:04,880 context 1104 00:44:08,550 --> 00:44:06,560 meaning 1105 00:44:09,510 --> 00:44:08,560 saying you're lost 1106 00:44:11,270 --> 00:44:09,520 and 1107 00:44:14,710 --> 00:44:11,280 you're not getting it 1108 00:44:16,630 --> 00:44:14,720 it is a methodology methodology it is 1109 00:44:18,309 --> 00:44:16,640 when a teacher tongue to a student 1110 00:44:20,390 --> 00:44:18,319 interacts with a student 1111 00:44:23,270 --> 00:44:20,400 to have an impact on them in a certain 1112 00:44:26,710 --> 00:44:23,280 way sometimes you have to say that 1113 00:44:28,550 --> 00:44:26,720 but not for everybody 1114 00:44:30,630 --> 00:44:28,560 you see it's not i wouldn't say that 1115 00:44:32,790 --> 00:44:30,640 about somebody who's not my student none 1116 00:44:35,750 --> 00:44:32,800 of my business i don't know 1117 00:44:37,750 --> 00:44:35,760 obviously but if one of my students is 1118 00:44:40,470 --> 00:44:37,760 sort of says come to me and say i want 1119 00:44:42,790 --> 00:44:40,480 to learn this but then they don't do it 1120 00:44:45,589 --> 00:44:42,800 they do something else or they go off on 1121 00:44:47,109 --> 00:44:45,599 some kind of tangent i would tell them 1122 00:44:49,190 --> 00:44:47,119 you see you know you're lost you don't 1123 00:44:51,750 --> 00:44:49,200 know what you're doing 1124 00:44:53,670 --> 00:44:51,760 you're wasting your life you see 1125 00:44:54,870 --> 00:44:53,680 and that would make an impact and make 1126 00:44:56,150 --> 00:44:54,880 them then 1127 00:44:59,270 --> 00:44:56,160 recommit 1128 00:45:01,109 --> 00:44:59,280 to that what they said they wanted 1129 00:45:03,030 --> 00:45:01,119 i see the way that you're describing it 1130 00:45:05,349 --> 00:45:03,040 is much more compassionate loving 1131 00:45:06,950 --> 00:45:05,359 amiable approach than some of what i see 1132 00:45:09,030 --> 00:45:06,960 and i'm not and you're not this i'm just 1133 00:45:10,550 --> 00:45:09,040 saying that this is some of what i see 1134 00:45:12,150 --> 00:45:10,560 with people adamantly claiming it 1135 00:45:13,750 --> 00:45:12,160 exclamation points as if they're 1136 00:45:15,750 --> 00:45:13,760 fearfully commenting about how one 1137 00:45:17,910 --> 00:45:15,760 should never feel fear and there's a bit 1138 00:45:20,230 --> 00:45:17,920 of derision in it too there's a bit of 1139 00:45:22,470 --> 00:45:20,240 yeah oh look at you you little oh little 1140 00:45:24,150 --> 00:45:22,480 one you have no idea and i'm the one 1141 00:45:26,150 --> 00:45:24,160 that understands this and if you only 1142 00:45:27,990 --> 00:45:26,160 could see it from my point of view 1143 00:45:29,750 --> 00:45:28,000 there's a bit of condescension in that i 1144 00:45:32,870 --> 00:45:29,760 don't think i don't think the buddha 1145 00:45:34,790 --> 00:45:32,880 would have talked like that 1146 00:45:37,109 --> 00:45:34,800 you know but i agree with you there are 1147 00:45:37,990 --> 00:45:37,119 people who talk like that but that's 1148 00:45:40,390 --> 00:45:38,000 you see 1149 00:45:43,109 --> 00:45:40,400 to be spiritually realized you're 1150 00:45:44,150 --> 00:45:43,119 naturally compassionate and 1151 00:45:46,150 --> 00:45:44,160 loving 1152 00:45:48,950 --> 00:45:46,160 and compassion and 1153 00:45:50,790 --> 00:45:48,960 includes atonement 1154 00:45:52,550 --> 00:45:50,800 appropriateness 1155 00:45:55,109 --> 00:45:52,560 can you expound another attunement i 1156 00:45:58,309 --> 00:45:55,119 mean attunement means 1157 00:46:00,710 --> 00:45:58,319 i relate to a human being depending on 1158 00:46:02,630 --> 00:46:00,720 who and where they are what they are 1159 00:46:05,109 --> 00:46:02,640 what they're into what their interests 1160 00:46:07,750 --> 00:46:05,119 with their orientation i'm not you know 1161 00:46:10,630 --> 00:46:07,760 i'm attuned to it and i speak to that i 1162 00:46:13,589 --> 00:46:10,640 i don't just lay on my 1163 00:46:14,790 --> 00:46:13,599 value system on them 1164 00:46:16,950 --> 00:46:14,800 and that 1165 00:46:17,990 --> 00:46:16,960 if somebody doesn't express themselves 1166 00:46:21,589 --> 00:46:18,000 that way 1167 00:46:22,630 --> 00:46:21,599 i will question their realization 1168 00:46:24,309 --> 00:46:22,640 great this is something that i've 1169 00:46:26,230 --> 00:46:24,319 wondered too because it's difficult for 1170 00:46:29,270 --> 00:46:26,240 me as someone who's being introduced to 1171 00:46:31,030 --> 00:46:29,280 this in many ways to discern who is 1172 00:46:33,190 --> 00:46:31,040 enlightened from who is not and what 1173 00:46:35,349 --> 00:46:33,200 that word means and one of the rules of 1174 00:46:36,550 --> 00:46:35,359 thumb or the litmus tests that i use i 1175 00:46:37,829 --> 00:46:36,560 encourage people to send me their 1176 00:46:38,950 --> 00:46:37,839 theories of everything that's the name 1177 00:46:39,750 --> 00:46:38,960 of the channel 1178 00:46:41,270 --> 00:46:39,760 and 1179 00:46:43,510 --> 00:46:41,280 one of the reasons is i don't know what 1180 00:46:45,510 --> 00:46:43,520 is true so let me see even what is 1181 00:46:46,790 --> 00:46:45,520 ordinarily considered to be fringe or 1182 00:46:48,390 --> 00:46:46,800 woo 1183 00:46:50,390 --> 00:46:48,400 perhaps it's not because today's science 1184 00:46:52,710 --> 00:46:50,400 was 100 years ago 1185 00:46:54,309 --> 00:46:52,720 and so on though i see sometimes people 1186 00:46:55,829 --> 00:46:54,319 they're not as humble and tentative as i 1187 00:46:58,230 --> 00:46:55,839 believe that they should be when they're 1188 00:47:00,230 --> 00:46:58,240 presenting their toe for example their 1189 00:47:01,589 --> 00:47:00,240 their spiritual theory of everything you 1190 00:47:04,470 --> 00:47:01,599 see yeah 1191 00:47:06,470 --> 00:47:04,480 the way i understand spiritualization 1192 00:47:07,910 --> 00:47:06,480 the spiritual realization if somebody 1193 00:47:10,710 --> 00:47:07,920 has realized 1194 00:47:12,710 --> 00:47:10,720 their expression in the world 1195 00:47:14,390 --> 00:47:12,720 should come through what's called the 1196 00:47:16,470 --> 00:47:14,400 virtues 1197 00:47:19,030 --> 00:47:16,480 the you know the ending grounding 1198 00:47:20,710 --> 00:47:19,040 which is like humility 1199 00:47:22,150 --> 00:47:20,720 serenity 1200 00:47:22,829 --> 00:47:22,160 courage 1201 00:47:24,870 --> 00:47:22,839 you 1202 00:47:26,230 --> 00:47:24,880 know um 1203 00:47:27,430 --> 00:47:26,240 love 1204 00:47:29,349 --> 00:47:27,440 things like that 1205 00:47:31,430 --> 00:47:29,359 if somebody doesn't express themselves 1206 00:47:34,549 --> 00:47:31,440 that way what are they expressing you 1207 00:47:36,069 --> 00:47:34,559 know so then is that okay when i am 1208 00:47:37,750 --> 00:47:36,079 trying to make a quick assessment 1209 00:47:39,109 --> 00:47:37,760 because there are probably 1 000 1210 00:47:40,630 --> 00:47:39,119 theories of everything and it's 1211 00:47:42,549 --> 00:47:40,640 difficult when each person is putting up 1212 00:47:44,549 --> 00:47:42,559 their hand saying i have the toe you 1213 00:47:46,950 --> 00:47:44,559 have no idea i have the you don't 1214 00:47:48,790 --> 00:47:46,960 understand i can't even be wrong is one 1215 00:47:51,589 --> 00:47:48,800 of the ways that i could perform a 1216 00:47:53,510 --> 00:47:51,599 cursory yes or no to investigate further 1217 00:47:56,230 --> 00:47:53,520 is if are they being inimical and 1218 00:47:58,390 --> 00:47:56,240 boisterous and pushing it and if so 1219 00:48:00,470 --> 00:47:58,400 perhaps that's that implies a bit of 1220 00:48:01,990 --> 00:48:00,480 attachment and fear and maybe they lack 1221 00:48:04,950 --> 00:48:02,000 an understanding of how to come across 1222 00:48:06,390 --> 00:48:04,960 lovingly if one has to thrust one's toe 1223 00:48:08,390 --> 00:48:06,400 then 1224 00:48:10,870 --> 00:48:08,400 it's it's a different stage you see we 1225 00:48:13,670 --> 00:48:10,880 haven't gone to all the stages yet there 1226 00:48:17,030 --> 00:48:13,680 is a realization after realization there 1227 00:48:20,790 --> 00:48:17,040 is what i call actualization 1228 00:48:23,349 --> 00:48:20,800 actualization is what you ends up being 1229 00:48:25,430 --> 00:48:23,359 in wisdom actualization mean you live 1230 00:48:27,750 --> 00:48:25,440 what you realized you don't just 1231 00:48:30,309 --> 00:48:27,760 experience it 1232 00:48:32,470 --> 00:48:30,319 that is another stage of development it 1233 00:48:35,109 --> 00:48:32,480 doesn't automatically happen through 1234 00:48:36,309 --> 00:48:35,119 awakening and realization 1235 00:48:38,069 --> 00:48:36,319 earlier when we were talking about 1236 00:48:39,829 --> 00:48:38,079 wisdom i would have equated wisdom and 1237 00:48:41,510 --> 00:48:39,839 that definition of actualization so are 1238 00:48:44,710 --> 00:48:41,520 those two different in your mind 1239 00:48:45,990 --> 00:48:44,720 yeah i i agree with you they are similar 1240 00:48:47,910 --> 00:48:46,000 thing yes 1241 00:48:49,750 --> 00:48:47,920 and so that's interesting because to me 1242 00:48:51,750 --> 00:48:49,760 i've seen wise people who wouldn't claim 1243 00:48:54,150 --> 00:48:51,760 to have any of these insights so that 1244 00:48:56,069 --> 00:48:54,160 means that one can be wise without being 1245 00:48:57,829 --> 00:48:56,079 realized and one could be realized 1246 00:48:59,990 --> 00:48:57,839 without being wise and at least for me 1247 00:49:02,870 --> 00:49:00,000 as this creature who's still perhaps 1248 00:49:04,870 --> 00:49:02,880 asleep i tend to prefer the wise i tend 1249 00:49:06,549 --> 00:49:04,880 to prefer the wise just because the wise 1250 00:49:08,710 --> 00:49:06,559 they're more loving i heed their message 1251 00:49:10,549 --> 00:49:08,720 you seem extremely wise and i don't know 1252 00:49:13,109 --> 00:49:10,559 am i wrong to prefer that or should 1253 00:49:14,710 --> 00:49:13,119 i have no preference with regard to this 1254 00:49:16,390 --> 00:49:14,720 it's just it's so difficult for me to 1255 00:49:19,109 --> 00:49:16,400 tell which messages are correct the 1256 00:49:22,309 --> 00:49:19,119 dalai lama to me exudes compassion and 1257 00:49:24,630 --> 00:49:22,319 serenity yes and he is humble too 1258 00:49:26,710 --> 00:49:24,640 right saying i'm still practicing i'm 1259 00:49:28,829 --> 00:49:26,720 still learning 1260 00:49:30,470 --> 00:49:28,839 yes he's not commenting with 1261 00:49:31,910 --> 00:49:30,480 yeah within a moderate use of 1262 00:49:33,109 --> 00:49:31,920 capitalization 1263 00:49:37,510 --> 00:49:33,119 you know 1264 00:49:40,390 --> 00:49:37,520 that's that's the real wisdom 1265 00:49:41,589 --> 00:49:40,400 that's why i like roger penrose 1266 00:49:43,270 --> 00:49:41,599 you like 1267 00:49:44,230 --> 00:49:43,280 you know i like it right 1268 00:49:46,390 --> 00:49:44,240 because 1269 00:49:47,270 --> 00:49:46,400 his relationship to his theories is like 1270 00:49:49,670 --> 00:49:47,280 that 1271 00:49:51,430 --> 00:49:49,680 like his he talked about his theory of 1272 00:49:53,990 --> 00:49:51,440 consciousness as you know 1273 00:49:56,309 --> 00:49:54,000 he has his theory of consciousness with 1274 00:49:58,390 --> 00:49:56,319 that he has developed other microtubules 1275 00:50:00,710 --> 00:49:58,400 and all that but then 1276 00:50:02,790 --> 00:50:00,720 he says well 1277 00:50:05,670 --> 00:50:02,800 will you say that this read the truth 1278 00:50:07,190 --> 00:50:05,680 he'll say well no i think we are 1279 00:50:09,670 --> 00:50:07,200 very far away from knowing what 1280 00:50:11,430 --> 00:50:09,680 consciousness is 1281 00:50:14,470 --> 00:50:11,440 so he sees it as 1282 00:50:16,790 --> 00:50:14,480 his contribution toward going that way 1283 00:50:18,150 --> 00:50:16,800 he doesn't see that's it while many 1284 00:50:20,150 --> 00:50:18,160 other people have fear of consciousness 1285 00:50:23,349 --> 00:50:20,160 they think that's it 1286 00:50:24,829 --> 00:50:23,359 i remember meeting you know one time 1287 00:50:28,069 --> 00:50:24,839 with several 1288 00:50:29,829 --> 00:50:28,079 scientists and neuroscientists who each 1289 00:50:33,030 --> 00:50:29,839 one has their theory of consciousness 1290 00:50:36,309 --> 00:50:33,040 one of the major fears of consciousness 1291 00:50:38,230 --> 00:50:36,319 and we had you know we had some kind of 1292 00:50:41,349 --> 00:50:38,240 confidence whatever but at some point we 1293 00:50:43,990 --> 00:50:41,359 met privately and we were trying to say 1294 00:50:45,990 --> 00:50:44,000 how we're going to communicate those 1295 00:50:49,190 --> 00:50:46,000 field consciousness and make them more 1296 00:50:52,230 --> 00:50:49,200 accept acceptable to a 1297 00:50:54,950 --> 00:50:52,240 larger scientific community 1298 00:50:56,150 --> 00:50:54,960 and i remember discussing it with them 1299 00:51:09,430 --> 00:50:56,160 and 1300 00:51:12,309 --> 00:51:09,440 the scientific community because it's a 1301 00:51:13,829 --> 00:51:12,319 consensus kind of science where we have 1302 00:51:14,630 --> 00:51:13,839 and 1303 00:51:19,510 --> 00:51:14,640 you 1304 00:51:21,510 --> 00:51:19,520 give a big theory with all kind of 1305 00:51:23,109 --> 00:51:21,520 assumptions and all kind of unknown 1306 00:51:26,150 --> 00:51:23,119 thing and expect the scientific 1307 00:51:28,630 --> 00:51:26,160 community to adopt it easily i said why 1308 00:51:29,829 --> 00:51:28,640 not just give little thing at a time you 1309 00:51:32,790 --> 00:51:29,839 know 1310 00:51:34,870 --> 00:51:32,800 put one thing in a small thing and 1311 00:51:37,589 --> 00:51:34,880 see how people respond if it is more 1312 00:51:39,510 --> 00:51:37,599 accepted then you can add more 1313 00:51:43,829 --> 00:51:39,520 they all refused 1314 00:51:47,589 --> 00:51:43,839 they said no i want to put out my theory 1315 00:51:49,430 --> 00:51:47,599 everybody wanted their theory to be it 1316 00:51:51,990 --> 00:51:49,440 because 1317 00:51:54,390 --> 00:51:52,000 so part of it is hobros part of what i 1318 00:51:56,790 --> 00:51:54,400 think is sort of arrogance as you say 1319 00:51:59,109 --> 00:51:56,800 but part was apparently human nature 1320 00:51:59,990 --> 00:51:59,119 partly is like i want to be right you 1321 00:52:02,549 --> 00:52:00,000 know 1322 00:52:04,630 --> 00:52:02,559 each one is convinced that they're right 1323 00:52:07,190 --> 00:52:04,640 that's why i say i like project patrol 1324 00:52:12,309 --> 00:52:07,200 he's not convinced he's right 1325 00:52:18,630 --> 00:52:14,630 many of the others don't believe that 1326 00:52:21,270 --> 00:52:20,230 i want to tell you about an experience i 1327 00:52:21,990 --> 00:52:21,280 had 1328 00:52:25,670 --> 00:52:22,000 so 1329 00:52:27,589 --> 00:52:25,680 won't include this in the in the final 1330 00:52:28,470 --> 00:52:27,599 so i'll try and be quick but some people 1331 00:52:30,309 --> 00:52:28,480 say 1332 00:52:31,750 --> 00:52:30,319 don't be so be open-minded but not also 1333 00:52:33,670 --> 00:52:31,760 open-minded that your head falls out i 1334 00:52:35,109 --> 00:52:33,680 don't like that phrase because to me i 1335 00:52:37,190 --> 00:52:35,119 like being 1336 00:52:38,309 --> 00:52:37,200 because to me the phrase so open-minded 1337 00:52:40,150 --> 00:52:38,319 that your head falls out means that 1338 00:52:42,150 --> 00:52:40,160 they've already placed a limit and if 1339 00:52:44,950 --> 00:52:42,160 i'm investigating this whole field and i 1340 00:52:47,270 --> 00:52:44,960 don't know what's true i can't already 1341 00:52:48,950 --> 00:52:47,280 say no to this i have to investigate it 1342 00:52:50,950 --> 00:52:48,960 and give it its due 1343 00:52:53,430 --> 00:52:50,960 so i tend to take 1344 00:52:54,950 --> 00:52:53,440 i i think i tend to take on these 1345 00:52:56,470 --> 00:52:54,960 theories of everything a bit too 1346 00:52:58,549 --> 00:52:56,480 seriously and i would have never said 1347 00:53:00,230 --> 00:52:58,559 that before i would have said 1348 00:53:01,510 --> 00:53:00,240 so here's an example when i was 1349 00:53:04,069 --> 00:53:01,520 interviewing someone named thomas 1350 00:53:06,790 --> 00:53:04,079 campbell who has my big toe 1351 00:53:09,829 --> 00:53:06,800 he in his book which firstly it's a 1352 00:53:11,349 --> 00:53:09,839 it's like three bibles his one book 1353 00:53:12,790 --> 00:53:11,359 so i was like okay let me read all of 1354 00:53:14,309 --> 00:53:12,800 that let me give it its due it's called 1355 00:53:15,990 --> 00:53:14,319 toe it's called my big toe and then 1356 00:53:17,510 --> 00:53:16,000 second he said you need to meditate for 1357 00:53:18,710 --> 00:53:17,520 at least three months in order to fully 1358 00:53:19,829 --> 00:53:18,720 get this so i'm like okay before i 1359 00:53:21,430 --> 00:53:19,839 interview i'm going to meditate i'm 1360 00:53:22,069 --> 00:53:21,440 going to try this 1361 00:53:27,270 --> 00:53:22,079 and 1362 00:53:30,069 --> 00:53:27,280 however 1363 00:53:31,510 --> 00:53:30,079 about three or so weeks ago i had 1364 00:53:33,109 --> 00:53:31,520 i had an experience that was probably 1365 00:53:34,870 --> 00:53:33,119 the most terrifying experience of my 1366 00:53:36,309 --> 00:53:34,880 entire life the more more terrifying and 1367 00:53:37,589 --> 00:53:36,319 i've had some terrifying experiences 1368 00:53:38,390 --> 00:53:37,599 before 1369 00:54:11,510 --> 00:53:38,400 i 1370 00:54:13,270 --> 00:54:11,520 some of what you say 1371 00:54:15,510 --> 00:54:13,280 triggers me some of what anyone in the 1372 00:54:17,109 --> 00:54:15,520 spiritual teaching say trigger me right 1373 00:54:19,190 --> 00:54:17,119 now because i'm hypersensitive from that 1374 00:54:23,589 --> 00:54:19,200 moment it's almost like ptsd it's so 1375 00:54:24,470 --> 00:54:23,599 it's too recent and it was so terrifying 1376 00:54:26,870 --> 00:54:24,480 that 1377 00:54:28,470 --> 00:54:26,880 it was so absolutely terrifying to call 1378 00:54:29,990 --> 00:54:28,480 it a panic attack would be like i would 1379 00:54:32,069 --> 00:54:30,000 have prayed for five panic attacks 1380 00:54:34,549 --> 00:54:32,079 rather than that i see 1381 00:54:37,349 --> 00:54:34,559 that's how you call it terrifying yeah 1382 00:54:38,710 --> 00:54:37,359 yeah yeah absolutely and i remember 1383 00:54:41,510 --> 00:54:38,720 so this is the part that i may take out 1384 00:54:43,190 --> 00:54:41,520 so whoever ever is editing this yeah 1385 00:54:45,349 --> 00:54:43,200 contact me and then i'll tell you what 1386 00:54:48,549 --> 00:54:45,359 to keep in it what to keep out i 1387 00:54:49,589 --> 00:54:48,559 i i'm i'm extremely open to god and i 1388 00:54:51,190 --> 00:54:49,599 would have never said that before 1389 00:54:53,910 --> 00:54:51,200 because i'm atheistic until about two 1390 00:54:56,230 --> 00:54:53,920 years ago or three years ago 1391 00:54:58,230 --> 00:54:56,240 however that was the only time in like i 1392 00:55:00,470 --> 00:54:58,240 was on i felt like i was on the brink of 1393 00:55:02,230 --> 00:55:00,480 insanity that there if i had realized 1394 00:55:03,589 --> 00:55:02,240 that i would be in the mental hospital 1395 00:55:05,589 --> 00:55:03,599 thinking that i have the truth but 1396 00:55:06,870 --> 00:55:05,599 everyone else putting me it was so to 1397 00:55:08,870 --> 00:55:06,880 look at my wife and think is this a 1398 00:55:10,230 --> 00:55:08,880 creation in my head how ungrateful am i 1399 00:55:11,910 --> 00:55:10,240 how selfish am i that i would think that 1400 00:55:13,190 --> 00:55:11,920 how embarrassed am i but at the same 1401 00:55:14,710 --> 00:55:13,200 time that could be real oh my gosh 1402 00:55:16,710 --> 00:55:14,720 looking at her and thinking that she's 1403 00:55:18,630 --> 00:55:16,720 looking at me from her point of view 1404 00:55:21,349 --> 00:55:18,640 behind her eyes like i love my husband 1405 00:55:23,030 --> 00:55:21,359 but then to for her to even think is my 1406 00:55:26,870 --> 00:55:23,040 husband my husband doesn't think i'm 1407 00:55:29,430 --> 00:55:26,880 real what the heck anyway then then 1408 00:55:31,349 --> 00:55:29,440 a commanding voice came to me a command 1409 00:55:32,549 --> 00:55:31,359 commanding commanding voice and i don't 1410 00:55:34,230 --> 00:55:32,559 want to talk about this this is why i 1411 00:55:36,549 --> 00:55:34,240 may want to take this out but and it was 1412 00:55:39,190 --> 00:55:36,559 more certain than any single thing in my 1413 00:55:41,829 --> 00:55:39,200 entire life and it was this commanding 1414 00:55:43,750 --> 00:55:41,839 voice that said kurt i don't even 1415 00:55:45,670 --> 00:55:43,760 remember what it said but part of it was 1416 00:55:48,150 --> 00:55:45,680 kurt you you've developed your thought 1417 00:55:49,670 --> 00:55:48,160 so much you don't you don't think of 1418 00:55:51,430 --> 00:55:49,680 yourself as someone who's analytical 1419 00:55:53,030 --> 00:55:51,440 you're extremely analytical look at what 1420 00:55:55,750 --> 00:55:53,040 this has led you to 1421 00:55:57,829 --> 00:55:55,760 feel more ground yourself in this world 1422 00:55:59,750 --> 00:55:57,839 and that the belief in this world the 1423 00:56:02,150 --> 00:55:59,760 belief in the reality of this world is 1424 00:56:03,510 --> 00:56:02,160 the same as belief in me it's the same 1425 00:56:05,990 --> 00:56:03,520 you don't see how it's the same right 1426 00:56:09,829 --> 00:56:06,000 now and that's fine but it is the same 1427 00:56:12,230 --> 00:56:09,839 so by you even feeling this solipsistic 1428 00:56:14,230 --> 00:56:12,240 experience it's it's almost like a slap 1429 00:56:15,589 --> 00:56:14,240 in the face to me that was the only 1430 00:56:17,829 --> 00:56:15,599 thing that kept me 1431 00:56:19,829 --> 00:56:17,839 grounded was this 1432 00:56:21,030 --> 00:56:19,839 deep profound belief anyway i wanted to 1433 00:56:22,150 --> 00:56:21,040 tell you about that experience i know 1434 00:56:24,150 --> 00:56:22,160 whoever's editing this is gonna have 1435 00:56:25,589 --> 00:56:24,160 such a huge time our time but but can 1436 00:56:27,750 --> 00:56:25,599 you let me know what you think and how 1437 00:56:29,589 --> 00:56:27,760 you would how you approach this 1438 00:56:31,430 --> 00:56:29,599 you know i i remember having similar 1439 00:56:33,109 --> 00:56:31,440 experience to yours 1440 00:56:34,710 --> 00:56:33,119 one time i remember 1441 00:56:36,630 --> 00:56:34,720 some years ago 1442 00:56:39,910 --> 00:56:36,640 i got up 1443 00:56:41,670 --> 00:56:39,920 woke up from sleep woke up my wife was 1444 00:56:44,950 --> 00:56:41,680 leaving with me and told her you know 1445 00:56:48,950 --> 00:56:44,960 you're a figment of my imagination 1446 00:56:53,670 --> 00:56:51,109 i think but that is 1447 00:56:55,829 --> 00:56:53,680 one way of experiencing things which 1448 00:56:56,630 --> 00:56:55,839 we could call a syllabicistic 1449 00:56:57,750 --> 00:56:56,640 but 1450 00:56:59,750 --> 00:56:57,760 you know 1451 00:57:02,870 --> 00:56:59,760 in the morning i i was still 1452 00:57:04,789 --> 00:57:02,880 experiencing that i am everything how i 1453 00:57:06,870 --> 00:57:04,799 i at the same time 1454 00:57:10,309 --> 00:57:06,880 my wife is real 1455 00:57:11,430 --> 00:57:10,319 she has her own experience 1456 00:57:13,510 --> 00:57:11,440 so 1457 00:57:17,349 --> 00:57:13,520 and 1458 00:57:20,069 --> 00:57:17,359 mean i use the 1459 00:57:22,870 --> 00:57:20,079 language of god sometimes divine or god 1460 00:57:24,630 --> 00:57:22,880 and sometimes calls spiritual nature 1461 00:57:27,030 --> 00:57:24,640 true nature which is or the ground the 1462 00:57:28,069 --> 00:57:27,040 spirituality 1463 00:57:29,349 --> 00:57:28,079 um 1464 00:57:31,990 --> 00:57:29,359 but it is 1465 00:57:34,549 --> 00:57:32,000 i think you were into something and you 1466 00:57:35,990 --> 00:57:34,559 call it solipsism but i mean that's 1467 00:57:39,990 --> 00:57:36,000 that's what 1468 00:57:40,950 --> 00:57:40,000 all advaita vedanta is about 1469 00:57:41,750 --> 00:57:40,960 that 1470 00:58:42,230 --> 00:57:41,760 i 1471 00:58:43,990 --> 00:58:42,240 always a terror because you don't know 1472 00:58:45,670 --> 00:58:44,000 what's going to happen your whole world 1473 00:58:47,349 --> 00:58:45,680 is going to disappear 1474 00:58:48,390 --> 00:58:47,359 you don't know what's going to take its 1475 00:58:51,109 --> 00:58:48,400 place 1476 00:58:52,789 --> 00:58:51,119 and and for me for the spiritual path 1477 00:58:53,829 --> 00:58:52,799 for special practice and inquiry 1478 00:58:55,910 --> 00:58:53,839 especially 1479 00:58:57,430 --> 00:58:55,920 is to welcome the terror and understand 1480 00:58:59,510 --> 00:58:57,440 it let it be 1481 00:59:01,990 --> 00:58:59,520 as one natural response to what's 1482 00:59:05,030 --> 00:59:03,270 integrated 1483 00:59:06,230 --> 00:59:05,040 what helped me 1484 00:59:08,789 --> 00:59:06,240 which was the only thing that helped me 1485 00:59:10,870 --> 00:59:08,799 was i was looking up i think that what i 1486 00:59:12,630 --> 00:59:10,880 had was or at least what i started to 1487 00:59:14,549 --> 00:59:12,640 suffer from afterward was obsessive 1488 00:59:15,670 --> 00:59:14,559 thoughts that this was what i would just 1489 00:59:17,190 --> 00:59:15,680 i would look around and i'd be 1490 00:59:19,670 --> 00:59:17,200 de-realized i wouldn't feel like this 1491 00:59:21,190 --> 00:59:19,680 was all real at all and then i looked up 1492 00:59:22,630 --> 00:59:21,200 what does cognitive behavioral therapy 1493 00:59:24,390 --> 00:59:22,640 have to say about this and there's 1494 00:59:27,109 --> 00:59:24,400 something called acceptance therapy 1495 00:59:29,510 --> 00:59:27,119 where you accept the thought rather than 1496 00:59:31,589 --> 00:59:29,520 trying to avoid and run from it however 1497 00:59:33,270 --> 00:59:31,599 acceptance is not the same as allowing 1498 00:59:35,190 --> 00:59:33,280 it to be true it's different and i don't 1499 00:59:37,430 --> 00:59:35,200 know how to articulate the difference 1500 00:59:39,750 --> 00:59:37,440 but it's it's almost like saying okay i 1501 00:59:45,270 --> 00:59:39,760 accept that i may think this and i just 1502 00:59:49,829 --> 00:59:48,230 no i think you you are trying to 1503 00:59:53,750 --> 00:59:49,839 put into words 1504 00:59:56,230 --> 00:59:53,760 something that is not mental 1505 00:59:59,109 --> 00:59:56,240 when you say acceptance i use the word 1506 01:00:00,950 --> 00:59:59,119 acceptance but but really acceptance and 1507 01:00:03,990 --> 01:00:00,960 the spiritual 1508 01:00:06,950 --> 01:00:04,000 as a quality of pure consciousness 1509 01:00:09,109 --> 01:00:06,960 is not saying yes to something 1510 01:00:11,829 --> 01:00:09,119 it is being 1511 01:00:15,430 --> 01:00:11,839 as allowing it to be 1512 01:00:18,710 --> 01:00:15,440 without rejection and without acceptance 1513 01:00:21,910 --> 01:00:18,720 so it's in the non-rejection 1514 01:00:24,069 --> 01:00:21,920 so acceptance acceptance doesn't mean i 1515 01:00:26,870 --> 01:00:24,079 take it on as true and that's it no 1516 01:00:28,789 --> 01:00:26,880 except i mean let it be as it is 1517 01:00:31,589 --> 01:00:28,799 let's find out what it is 1518 01:00:32,789 --> 01:00:31,599 you know and let it show itself 1519 01:00:35,270 --> 01:00:32,799 you see 1520 01:00:39,829 --> 01:00:35,280 i i don't accept and i don't reject what 1521 01:00:43,270 --> 01:00:40,829 and 1522 01:00:44,789 --> 01:00:43,280 that yeah go ahead 1523 01:00:47,990 --> 01:00:44,799 can you tell me about that story about 1524 01:00:48,870 --> 01:00:48,000 the man who had a stash of water 1525 01:00:50,789 --> 01:00:48,880 and 1526 01:00:52,549 --> 01:00:50,799 he felt like the main water source was 1527 01:00:54,950 --> 01:00:52,559 vitiated and so he didn't want to drink 1528 01:00:56,630 --> 01:00:54,960 from it 1529 01:00:57,990 --> 01:00:56,640 can you tell that story and the moral 1530 01:00:59,829 --> 01:00:58,000 behind it 1531 01:01:02,390 --> 01:00:59,839 yeah yeah 1532 01:01:04,549 --> 01:01:02,400 when the waters were changed that's 1533 01:01:05,990 --> 01:01:04,559 what's it called that's a sufi story i 1534 01:01:07,670 --> 01:01:06,000 think i don't know 1535 01:01:12,870 --> 01:01:07,680 it's origin 1536 01:01:12,880 --> 01:01:17,990 what i remember is that a 1537 01:01:31,030 --> 01:01:21,510 man who was living in some kind of a 1538 01:01:35,910 --> 01:01:32,950 and i don't remember 1539 01:01:40,150 --> 01:01:35,920 the part where he realized 1540 01:01:43,510 --> 01:01:41,829 the water is going to be changed once 1541 01:01:46,069 --> 01:01:43,520 you get changed people drink from it 1542 01:01:48,390 --> 01:01:46,079 they'll forget who they are 1543 01:01:49,829 --> 01:01:48,400 so he collected some of the water for 1544 01:01:51,190 --> 01:01:49,839 himself 1545 01:01:52,870 --> 01:01:51,200 you see 1546 01:01:54,630 --> 01:01:52,880 before it changed 1547 01:01:56,950 --> 01:01:54,640 and then people were drinking the water 1548 01:02:02,309 --> 01:01:56,960 they all became sort of forgot who they 1549 01:02:05,029 --> 01:02:03,829 but then you said that the point was 1550 01:02:07,829 --> 01:02:05,039 that 1551 01:02:10,309 --> 01:02:07,839 it was too much for him 1552 01:02:13,109 --> 01:02:10,319 well and then there is the quality yeah 1553 01:02:15,910 --> 01:02:13,119 how how is he going to live by himself 1554 01:02:20,630 --> 01:02:15,920 he he knows reality and everybody else 1555 01:02:22,870 --> 01:02:20,640 or i think reality is something else 1556 01:02:25,109 --> 01:02:22,880 so he chose to drink from the main 1557 01:02:27,029 --> 01:02:25,119 source afterwards uh yeah that's the 1558 01:02:31,270 --> 01:02:27,039 story's either he couldn't handle it the 1559 01:02:35,750 --> 01:02:34,470 see i think this is part of what 1560 01:02:38,150 --> 01:02:35,760 is also 1561 01:02:40,150 --> 01:02:38,160 can be dangerous about some spiritual 1562 01:02:42,069 --> 01:02:40,160 teachings is that there's the social 1563 01:02:43,670 --> 01:02:42,079 pressure that seems unacknowledged 1564 01:02:45,670 --> 01:02:43,680 because we use terms like they couldn't 1565 01:02:46,950 --> 01:02:45,680 handle it and then we culturally have a 1566 01:02:49,190 --> 01:02:46,960 norm that no you should be able to 1567 01:02:50,549 --> 01:02:49,200 handle so-and-so so if you can't handle 1568 01:02:52,390 --> 01:02:50,559 it there's something wrong with you i 1569 01:02:54,309 --> 01:02:52,400 constantly say this that i'm not a truth 1570 01:02:56,549 --> 01:02:54,319 seeker i'm a truth seeker of how much i 1571 01:02:58,870 --> 01:02:56,559 can handle and i'm a coward 1572 01:03:00,470 --> 01:02:58,880 because i'm afraid of what could be true 1573 01:03:02,470 --> 01:03:00,480 but at the same time i used to feel 1574 01:03:04,069 --> 01:03:02,480 extremely bad about that i used to until 1575 01:03:06,309 --> 01:03:04,079 about three weeks ago when i say you 1576 01:03:08,230 --> 01:03:06,319 know what kurt 1577 01:03:10,390 --> 01:03:08,240 that's how you are that's it that's fine 1578 01:03:11,829 --> 01:03:10,400 just accept it i don't think that i'm 1579 01:03:14,150 --> 01:03:11,839 one of those people that's meant to have 1580 01:03:17,029 --> 01:03:14,160 that realization wow i think 1581 01:03:20,069 --> 01:03:17,039 i don't know about that you see i i 1582 01:03:23,190 --> 01:03:20,079 myself see that many people 1583 01:03:24,870 --> 01:03:23,200 will be afraid to see certain truths 1584 01:03:27,270 --> 01:03:24,880 most people will be afraid of seeing 1585 01:03:30,470 --> 01:03:27,280 that it will be terrifying for them 1586 01:03:32,710 --> 01:03:30,480 but i don't think that that doesn't make 1587 01:03:35,510 --> 01:03:32,720 me think i don't want to talk to them i 1588 01:03:37,670 --> 01:03:35,520 don't relate with them as equals and i 1589 01:03:40,150 --> 01:03:37,680 have friends 1590 01:03:41,750 --> 01:03:40,160 i mean many of my friends are 1591 01:03:43,349 --> 01:03:41,760 you know people don't not know me don't 1592 01:03:44,470 --> 01:03:43,359 understand don't know who i am they 1593 01:03:47,990 --> 01:03:44,480 don't see 1594 01:03:52,870 --> 01:03:48,000 me as me the way i know myself it's fine 1595 01:03:52,880 --> 01:03:57,510 and i don't have a judgment of them 1596 01:04:03,510 --> 01:03:58,470 everybody 1597 01:04:06,630 --> 01:04:03,520 let's say a line of evolution for them 1598 01:04:08,630 --> 01:04:06,640 that is sort of part of their destiny 1599 01:04:10,390 --> 01:04:08,640 part of their you know 1600 01:04:14,789 --> 01:04:10,400 well what's 1601 01:04:19,510 --> 01:04:17,270 people are different that way 1602 01:04:22,069 --> 01:04:19,520 so i mean you come back to this whether 1603 01:04:24,069 --> 01:04:22,079 there is a judgment whether there is a 1604 01:04:27,190 --> 01:04:24,079 hierarchy 1605 01:04:32,309 --> 01:04:29,510 and it's true i mean spiritual teaching 1606 01:04:35,029 --> 01:04:32,319 sometimes they do have hierarchy of 1607 01:04:37,510 --> 01:04:35,039 different stages for instance 1608 01:04:39,510 --> 01:04:37,520 in the path but that that is in the path 1609 01:04:42,710 --> 01:04:39,520 itself if you are on the path on the 1610 01:04:44,470 --> 01:04:42,720 spiritual school there are stages 1611 01:04:45,510 --> 01:04:44,480 and some teaching have stages something 1612 01:04:49,349 --> 01:04:45,520 you don't 1613 01:04:52,069 --> 01:04:49,359 but that doesn't mean the wise 1614 01:04:54,549 --> 01:04:52,079 the wise of that school are judging the 1615 01:04:55,589 --> 01:04:54,559 people outside of their school as you 1616 01:04:58,309 --> 01:04:55,599 know 1617 01:05:00,230 --> 01:04:58,319 unless then or anything like that 1618 01:05:02,549 --> 01:05:00,240 i think that i was far too egotistical 1619 01:05:04,390 --> 01:05:02,559 before in my adoption of theories of 1620 01:05:05,589 --> 01:05:04,400 everything by thinking that i could find 1621 01:05:07,109 --> 01:05:05,599 the truth and i could have these 1622 01:05:09,029 --> 01:05:07,119 realizations if they're in fact 1623 01:05:11,270 --> 01:05:09,039 realizations like i would investigate it 1624 01:05:13,910 --> 01:05:11,280 but now i think that my contribution 1625 01:05:16,069 --> 01:05:13,920 is to help others with their journey one 1626 01:05:18,150 --> 01:05:16,079 step rather than taking them all the way 1627 01:05:23,029 --> 01:05:18,160 and taking myself all the way i think 1628 01:05:24,789 --> 01:05:23,039 i've been humbled by this experience so 1629 01:05:26,789 --> 01:05:24,799 humbled in the humiliating sense in the 1630 01:05:30,150 --> 01:05:26,799 hurtful sense but in the salutary sense 1631 01:05:32,230 --> 01:05:30,160 too that i think my role is to not have 1632 01:05:35,029 --> 01:05:32,240 realizations at least right now 1633 01:05:37,349 --> 01:05:35,039 and to perhaps if it's anything positive 1634 01:05:39,270 --> 01:05:37,359 maybe i can help other people with the 1635 01:05:40,870 --> 01:05:39,280 putting on one foot forward you already 1636 01:05:43,990 --> 01:05:40,880 had some you just told me about 1637 01:05:46,630 --> 01:05:44,000 something you experienced you had 1638 01:05:50,870 --> 01:05:46,640 and it just brought fear and the fear is 1639 01:05:54,710 --> 01:05:53,829 if if you metabolize the fear 1640 01:05:55,990 --> 01:05:54,720 then 1641 01:05:57,829 --> 01:05:56,000 you might be able to have that 1642 01:05:59,510 --> 01:05:57,839 experience and have more understanding 1643 01:06:01,990 --> 01:05:59,520 of how it fits 1644 01:06:03,510 --> 01:06:02,000 the rest of your life 1645 01:06:05,510 --> 01:06:03,520 because of time constraints we're now 1646 01:06:08,390 --> 01:06:05,520 jumping directly from audience question 1647 01:06:10,390 --> 01:06:08,400 to audience question john muniz asks 1648 01:06:12,150 --> 01:06:10,400 many spiritual teachers and traditions 1649 01:06:13,910 --> 01:06:12,160 have disparaged the role of intellectual 1650 01:06:16,789 --> 01:06:13,920 development in book learning on the path 1651 01:06:19,029 --> 01:06:16,799 of awakening however this person's a fan 1652 01:06:20,710 --> 01:06:19,039 of yours and says as as you almas you 1653 01:06:22,309 --> 01:06:20,720 try to combine the quest for spiritual 1654 01:06:24,069 --> 01:06:22,319 awakening with the quest for mental 1655 01:06:25,349 --> 01:06:24,079 understanding i look up to you 1656 01:06:27,190 --> 01:06:25,359 since you've managed to integrate those 1657 01:06:29,109 --> 01:06:27,200 two domains can you speak about the 1658 01:06:30,950 --> 01:06:29,119 positive contribution intellectual 1659 01:06:32,710 --> 01:06:30,960 growth can make toward deepening one's 1660 01:06:37,829 --> 01:06:32,720 relationship with reality 1661 01:06:42,069 --> 01:06:40,470 more spiritual teaching actually 1662 01:06:44,829 --> 01:06:42,079 they begin with some kind of 1663 01:06:47,829 --> 01:06:44,839 intellectual understanding 1664 01:06:51,029 --> 01:06:47,839 so just learning what is the view which 1665 01:06:53,430 --> 01:06:51,039 is the perspective of the teaching 1666 01:06:55,349 --> 01:06:53,440 and it is good to have that 1667 01:06:57,430 --> 01:06:55,359 but you don't want to stop with that you 1668 01:06:59,589 --> 01:06:57,440 want to have the experience not just 1669 01:07:01,270 --> 01:06:59,599 until they can understand but you see 1670 01:07:04,710 --> 01:07:01,280 the question of the role of the 1671 01:07:06,150 --> 01:07:04,720 intellect is a very big question 1672 01:07:09,270 --> 01:07:06,160 because 1673 01:07:11,510 --> 01:07:09,280 it's not whether you begin with 1674 01:07:13,270 --> 01:07:11,520 intellectual understanding which many 1675 01:07:14,870 --> 01:07:13,280 teaching 1676 01:07:15,910 --> 01:07:14,880 subscribe to 1677 01:07:18,069 --> 01:07:15,920 it's 1678 01:07:20,950 --> 01:07:18,079 some teaching they think 1679 01:07:23,510 --> 01:07:20,960 the mind is a problem at some point 1680 01:07:25,589 --> 01:07:23,520 that you need to drop the mind 1681 01:07:26,829 --> 01:07:25,599 because what you want is a direct 1682 01:07:29,910 --> 01:07:26,839 immediate 1683 01:07:33,349 --> 01:07:29,920 experience that is not 1684 01:07:36,630 --> 01:07:33,359 constrained by the concept of the mind 1685 01:07:38,630 --> 01:07:36,640 and and i think that is true 1686 01:07:42,390 --> 01:07:38,640 however 1687 01:07:44,549 --> 01:07:42,400 the mind can develop too 1688 01:07:47,430 --> 01:07:44,559 the mind is not just one level 1689 01:07:49,750 --> 01:07:47,440 you see it's not in the intellect you 1690 01:07:51,750 --> 01:07:49,760 know i i remember reading the greek 1691 01:07:53,109 --> 01:07:51,760 philosophy you know some of the greek 1692 01:07:57,270 --> 01:07:53,119 philosophers like 1693 01:08:00,150 --> 01:07:57,280 neoplatonist they had 11 love levels for 1694 01:08:04,390 --> 01:08:01,829 11. no i didn't know that 1695 01:08:05,270 --> 01:08:04,400 yeah the other one in the process i 1696 01:08:06,549 --> 01:08:05,280 think 1697 01:08:08,710 --> 01:08:06,559 you know 1698 01:08:11,349 --> 01:08:08,720 what are some of these levels 1699 01:08:13,270 --> 01:08:11,359 well like the usual mind that we usual 1700 01:08:15,349 --> 01:08:13,280 intellect we have that we use for 1701 01:08:19,189 --> 01:08:15,359 reasoning or whatever and there is 1702 01:08:25,349 --> 01:08:22,630 can have capacity for synthesis 1703 01:08:27,510 --> 01:08:25,359 you know and then another the capacitive 1704 01:08:30,950 --> 01:08:27,520 synthesis that does not depend on 1705 01:08:38,950 --> 01:08:34,149 and then then an intellect that is 1706 01:08:43,189 --> 01:08:41,910 and then there is an intellect that 1707 01:08:44,870 --> 01:08:43,199 where 1708 01:08:47,669 --> 01:08:44,880 true 1709 01:08:49,510 --> 01:08:47,679 intelligence the prototype of 1710 01:08:52,870 --> 01:08:49,520 intelligence the platonic form of 1711 01:08:57,030 --> 01:08:52,880 intelligence pure intelligence of 1712 01:09:00,390 --> 01:08:57,040 spirit flows in the mind 1713 01:09:04,229 --> 01:09:00,400 and so that that kind of intelligence 1714 01:09:05,030 --> 01:09:04,239 usually people say a person is brilliant 1715 01:09:07,430 --> 01:09:05,040 right 1716 01:09:09,430 --> 01:09:07,440 when they say when they're smart 1717 01:09:11,110 --> 01:09:09,440 why do they say that why do they say 1718 01:09:14,870 --> 01:09:11,120 person's brilliant why do they use the 1719 01:09:15,669 --> 01:09:14,880 word project do you ever think about it 1720 01:09:17,510 --> 01:09:15,679 no 1721 01:09:19,510 --> 01:09:17,520 why do they say brilliant 1722 01:09:22,390 --> 01:09:19,520 because pure intelligence 1723 01:09:25,269 --> 01:09:22,400 when you see it with the subtle sense it 1724 01:09:27,669 --> 01:09:25,279 looks like pure brilliance 1725 01:09:29,910 --> 01:09:27,679 like you know the brilliance of light 1726 01:09:33,110 --> 01:09:29,920 it is brilliance without a color just 1727 01:09:35,669 --> 01:09:33,120 pure brilliance and so presence like of 1728 01:09:36,390 --> 01:09:35,679 of a palpable 1729 01:09:37,590 --> 01:09:36,400 uh 1730 01:09:39,030 --> 01:09:37,600 substance 1731 01:09:41,030 --> 01:09:39,040 of brilliance 1732 01:09:42,950 --> 01:09:41,040 and this brilliance when you when when 1733 01:09:44,390 --> 01:09:42,960 your experiences feel like pure 1734 01:09:46,309 --> 01:09:44,400 intelligence 1735 01:09:49,030 --> 01:09:46,319 it can flow through the mind but also 1736 01:09:50,950 --> 01:09:49,040 can flow through the body so we can be 1737 01:09:52,390 --> 01:09:50,960 physically intelligent and brilliant 1738 01:09:54,550 --> 01:09:52,400 could be emotions 1739 01:09:56,709 --> 01:09:54,560 so there's another that's another level 1740 01:09:58,149 --> 01:09:56,719 of intellect where where it is open 1741 01:10:01,110 --> 01:09:58,159 where the 1742 01:10:03,110 --> 01:10:01,120 true intelligence of of spirit 1743 01:10:05,030 --> 01:10:03,120 can 1744 01:10:06,870 --> 01:10:05,040 come through 1745 01:10:10,870 --> 01:10:06,880 the 1746 01:10:13,669 --> 01:10:10,880 understanding 1747 01:10:16,390 --> 01:10:13,679 and i think that's why 1748 01:10:18,870 --> 01:10:16,400 penrose when he talks about 1749 01:10:22,390 --> 01:10:21,110 about the consciousness and what it is 1750 01:10:24,390 --> 01:10:22,400 that is not 1751 01:10:26,630 --> 01:10:24,400 computational whatever 1752 01:10:29,030 --> 01:10:26,640 he uses he he goes to and he said 1753 01:10:30,870 --> 01:10:29,040 understanding cannot be it's not a 1754 01:10:31,830 --> 01:10:30,880 computational thing 1755 01:10:37,910 --> 01:10:31,840 but he 1756 01:10:40,149 --> 01:10:37,920 doesn't exactly know what he knows 1757 01:10:43,510 --> 01:10:40,159 the way i see it in the sense he knows 1758 01:10:45,430 --> 01:10:43,520 it is not commutation it is not analytic 1759 01:10:47,590 --> 01:10:45,440 that understanding is something that 1760 01:10:50,790 --> 01:10:47,600 happens within us 1761 01:10:53,430 --> 01:10:50,800 that brings out a new experience and new 1762 01:10:56,229 --> 01:10:53,440 insights but we don't know 1763 01:10:59,350 --> 01:10:56,239 what did it how it worked 1764 01:11:01,510 --> 01:10:59,360 because in italy because he is i think 1765 01:11:03,510 --> 01:11:01,520 he has that kind of brilliance flowing 1766 01:11:05,430 --> 01:11:03,520 in him he might not see it but 1767 01:11:07,350 --> 01:11:05,440 it is flowing in him 1768 01:11:09,990 --> 01:11:07,360 and and and 1769 01:11:11,590 --> 01:11:10,000 so he said he is a materialist he's not 1770 01:11:13,350 --> 01:11:11,600 mystical whatever 1771 01:11:14,550 --> 01:11:13,360 i think he is 1772 01:11:22,229 --> 01:11:14,560 sort of 1773 01:11:24,229 --> 01:11:22,239 there is that part of him 1774 01:11:26,709 --> 01:11:24,239 something in him because 1775 01:11:29,030 --> 01:11:26,719 by saying that understanding not 1776 01:11:32,870 --> 01:11:29,040 computational is already is a mystical 1777 01:11:38,790 --> 01:11:35,510 because that is a level of intellect 1778 01:11:42,070 --> 01:11:40,470 when you say that he understands but 1779 01:11:44,070 --> 01:11:42,080 without knowing he understands do you 1780 01:11:45,350 --> 01:11:44,080 mean that when he's using in that 1781 01:11:47,110 --> 01:11:45,360 argument that our mind is not 1782 01:11:49,590 --> 01:11:47,120 computational because we understand an 1783 01:11:51,350 --> 01:11:49,600 argument that has some gerdelian 1784 01:11:52,709 --> 01:11:51,360 argument that he uses the word 1785 01:11:54,470 --> 01:11:52,719 understanding but he doesn't understand 1786 01:11:55,350 --> 01:11:54,480 what the word understanding means is 1787 01:11:57,510 --> 01:11:55,360 that what you mean or something 1788 01:11:59,030 --> 01:11:57,520 different no he he doesn't 1789 01:12:01,590 --> 01:11:59,040 no i'm not saying he knows what 1790 01:12:05,270 --> 01:12:01,600 understanding mean he just doesn't know 1791 01:12:08,470 --> 01:12:05,280 why it is not computational 1792 01:12:10,070 --> 01:12:08,480 he he doesn't have the uh 1793 01:12:12,709 --> 01:12:10,080 i mean i don't know what to say he 1794 01:12:13,510 --> 01:12:12,719 doesn't he he sort of has an intuition i 1795 01:12:15,910 --> 01:12:13,520 think 1796 01:12:18,470 --> 01:12:15,920 that i understand he he put three words 1797 01:12:19,110 --> 01:12:18,480 i remember consciousness understanding 1798 01:12:21,270 --> 01:12:19,120 and 1799 01:12:24,229 --> 01:12:21,280 intelligence he said those three are 1800 01:12:27,510 --> 01:12:24,239 related and and all of them are outside 1801 01:12:31,030 --> 01:12:29,030 i was watching one of your talks and you 1802 01:12:33,270 --> 01:12:31,040 were referring to i am that i am which 1803 01:12:35,350 --> 01:12:33,280 is statement from what god was saying 1804 01:12:37,110 --> 01:12:35,360 when asked for his name and then you 1805 01:12:39,590 --> 01:12:37,120 related that to strength knowing 1806 01:12:41,590 --> 01:12:39,600 strength or strength somehow to strength 1807 01:12:42,390 --> 01:12:41,600 do you mind expounding 1808 01:12:44,149 --> 01:12:42,400 well 1809 01:12:45,350 --> 01:12:44,159 i am 1810 01:12:47,430 --> 01:12:45,360 the sense of 1811 01:12:49,270 --> 01:12:47,440 say i am 1812 01:12:51,430 --> 01:12:49,280 which is known by many 1813 01:12:53,830 --> 01:12:51,440 spiritual teachings 1814 01:12:55,990 --> 01:12:53,840 is to know one's 1815 01:12:59,270 --> 01:12:56,000 the presence of one's 1816 01:13:03,270 --> 01:12:59,280 spirit or one's pure consciousness 1817 01:13:06,950 --> 01:13:06,149 which means the ontological 1818 01:13:08,950 --> 01:13:06,960 uh 1819 01:13:13,030 --> 01:13:08,960 dimension of consciousness 1820 01:13:13,990 --> 01:13:13,040 it's ontology not its uh functionality 1821 01:13:15,590 --> 01:13:14,000 you see 1822 01:13:17,910 --> 01:13:15,600 because most people know consciousness 1823 01:13:20,950 --> 01:13:17,920 as a functional thing i'm aware of this 1824 01:13:22,870 --> 01:13:20,960 i see that but what is consciousness 1825 01:13:25,110 --> 01:13:22,880 itself most people don't even think of 1826 01:13:27,030 --> 01:13:25,120 that when you know what consciousness is 1827 01:13:29,990 --> 01:13:27,040 that is its ontology 1828 01:13:32,630 --> 01:13:30,000 and that feels as some kind of presence 1829 01:13:35,750 --> 01:13:32,640 but that then that is i am 1830 01:13:37,590 --> 01:13:35,760 however the i am can appear in with 1831 01:13:41,189 --> 01:13:37,600 different uh 1832 01:13:42,790 --> 01:13:41,199 qualities can appear as pure 1833 01:13:44,229 --> 01:13:42,800 not just a pure 1834 01:13:46,470 --> 01:13:44,239 presence of 1835 01:13:50,870 --> 01:13:46,480 just simply i am 1836 01:13:54,550 --> 01:13:50,880 but i am strength meaning the 1837 01:13:57,750 --> 01:13:54,560 presence can manifest one of its 1838 01:13:59,830 --> 01:13:57,760 possibilities which is pure strength or 1839 01:14:01,910 --> 01:13:59,840 pure 1840 01:14:04,070 --> 01:14:01,920 one of the insights that i had during my 1841 01:14:06,790 --> 01:14:04,080 episode if we can call it that and this 1842 01:14:08,709 --> 01:14:06,800 was being told to me is that if what i'm 1843 01:14:11,110 --> 01:14:08,719 experiencing isn't loving 1844 01:14:13,350 --> 01:14:11,120 isn't somehow life affirming then see 1845 01:14:15,189 --> 01:14:13,360 that as a sign that it's deception 1846 01:14:16,790 --> 01:14:15,199 so move toward what's loving and ground 1847 01:14:17,830 --> 01:14:16,800 myself in other people and talk to them 1848 01:14:19,669 --> 01:14:17,840 and so on 1849 01:14:22,470 --> 01:14:19,679 what do you make of that do you see that 1850 01:14:24,950 --> 01:14:22,480 as having an element of truth 1851 01:14:27,430 --> 01:14:24,960 yeah i think yeah i would say is the 1852 01:14:30,470 --> 01:14:27,440 truth and love tied and if so how 1853 01:14:33,189 --> 01:14:30,480 very much connected because truth is the 1854 01:14:36,390 --> 01:14:33,199 essence of the heart 1855 01:14:39,110 --> 01:14:36,400 and expresses itself as love 1856 01:14:40,550 --> 01:14:39,120 that's my experience of it you see truth 1857 01:14:43,590 --> 01:14:40,560 is the essence of the heart and it 1858 01:14:45,750 --> 01:14:43,600 expresses itself as love so the 1859 01:14:46,790 --> 01:14:45,760 expression of truth is love 1860 01:14:49,510 --> 01:14:46,800 yeah 1861 01:14:51,350 --> 01:14:49,520 so if somebody is not loving 1862 01:14:53,189 --> 01:14:51,360 meaning they're not completely open in 1863 01:14:55,270 --> 01:14:53,199 their heart 1864 01:14:57,189 --> 01:14:55,280 and the truth of who they are is not 1865 01:14:59,510 --> 01:14:57,199 coming through 1866 01:15:00,470 --> 01:14:59,520 you had a phrase about 1867 01:15:02,870 --> 01:15:00,480 that the 1868 01:15:04,310 --> 01:15:02,880 mouth tastes what's material so i'm 1869 01:15:06,310 --> 01:15:04,320 butchering it but the mouth tastes 1870 01:15:07,830 --> 01:15:06,320 what's material and the heart tastes 1871 01:15:08,709 --> 01:15:07,840 what's spiritual 1872 01:15:11,830 --> 01:15:08,719 right 1873 01:15:14,310 --> 01:15:11,840 well that's some teachings like the sufi 1874 01:15:16,550 --> 01:15:14,320 think of a spiritual insight a spiritual 1875 01:15:19,110 --> 01:15:16,560 knowledge as taste 1876 01:15:21,350 --> 01:15:19,120 but it is the taste of the heart 1877 01:15:22,709 --> 01:15:21,360 that the heart is the organ of spiritual 1878 01:15:24,790 --> 01:15:22,719 taste 1879 01:15:28,310 --> 01:15:24,800 so the knowing 1880 01:15:29,910 --> 01:15:28,320 of spiritual matters they think of it as 1881 01:15:32,310 --> 01:15:29,920 a heart knowing 1882 01:15:34,149 --> 01:15:32,320 and and they 1883 01:15:36,790 --> 01:15:34,159 they call it taste 1884 01:15:39,270 --> 01:15:36,800 and taste you know 1885 01:15:40,709 --> 01:15:39,280 the arabic word 1886 01:15:42,630 --> 01:15:40,719 which means 1887 01:15:44,310 --> 01:15:42,640 like when you sample something you want 1888 01:15:46,630 --> 01:15:44,320 to taste it 1889 01:15:48,550 --> 01:15:46,640 you know this sometime means the 1890 01:15:49,510 --> 01:15:48,560 capacitive taste but sometimes taste 1891 01:15:50,470 --> 01:15:49,520 this 1892 01:15:52,470 --> 01:15:50,480 right 1893 01:15:54,870 --> 01:15:52,480 so when you have a spiritual experience 1894 01:15:56,630 --> 01:15:54,880 you're tasting something 1895 01:15:57,910 --> 01:15:56,640 so the heart tastes that 1896 01:16:01,750 --> 01:15:57,920 that way 1897 01:16:03,590 --> 01:16:01,760 so it get it to get get to know 1898 01:16:05,430 --> 01:16:03,600 the the the truth the reality the 1899 01:16:07,830 --> 01:16:05,440 spiritual reality 1900 01:16:10,310 --> 01:16:07,840 so it's sometimes called taste sometimes 1901 01:16:12,149 --> 01:16:10,320 called touch too 1902 01:16:13,830 --> 01:16:12,159 and not touch 1903 01:16:15,830 --> 01:16:13,840 at some point i want to speak to ken 1904 01:16:17,110 --> 01:16:15,840 wilbur perhaps in a few months when i'm 1905 01:16:19,830 --> 01:16:17,120 strong enough to 1906 01:16:21,590 --> 01:16:19,840 and i know that ken wilbur and you have 1907 01:16:23,590 --> 01:16:21,600 agreements and disagreements and i'm 1908 01:16:25,750 --> 01:16:23,600 unsure of his model but can you tell me 1909 01:16:27,990 --> 01:16:25,760 where you both agree and disagree 1910 01:16:29,189 --> 01:16:28,000 like compare and contrast 1911 01:16:31,750 --> 01:16:29,199 uh 1912 01:16:34,229 --> 01:16:31,760 it's maybe very hard for me to say that 1913 01:16:36,229 --> 01:16:34,239 because i haven't been following his 1914 01:16:38,630 --> 01:16:36,239 latest things you know and i was 1915 01:16:41,350 --> 01:16:38,640 following you or sometimes 1916 01:16:42,870 --> 01:16:41,360 but it's it's not a agreement 1917 01:16:45,110 --> 01:16:42,880 disagreement 1918 01:16:47,590 --> 01:16:45,120 i remember at one time there was some 1919 01:16:49,110 --> 01:16:47,600 disagreement some years ago 1920 01:16:51,030 --> 01:16:49,120 when 1921 01:16:53,430 --> 01:16:51,040 i was 1922 01:16:55,750 --> 01:16:53,440 putting out in some of my books 1923 01:16:57,110 --> 01:16:55,760 that as 1924 01:16:59,669 --> 01:16:57,120 young children 1925 01:17:01,350 --> 01:16:59,679 we were in touch with our spiritual 1926 01:17:03,750 --> 01:17:01,360 nature 1927 01:17:05,830 --> 01:17:03,760 and he disagreed with that he thought no 1928 01:17:07,910 --> 01:17:05,840 children are like monsters they're not 1929 01:17:09,590 --> 01:17:07,920 in touch with the spiritual nature 1930 01:17:12,310 --> 01:17:09,600 and i said yeah 1931 01:17:14,709 --> 01:17:12,320 they can be monsters but also they can 1932 01:17:16,390 --> 01:17:14,719 be beautiful and wonderful and joyful 1933 01:17:18,790 --> 01:17:16,400 and innocent and all of that and these 1934 01:17:22,709 --> 01:17:18,800 are spiritual qualities that was you 1935 01:17:23,910 --> 01:17:22,719 know this agreement we had at that time 1936 01:17:25,750 --> 01:17:23,920 and um 1937 01:17:27,590 --> 01:17:25,760 i don't know at the present time i mean 1938 01:17:29,110 --> 01:17:27,600 he he is more 1939 01:17:34,709 --> 01:17:29,120 of a 1940 01:17:38,070 --> 01:17:34,719 of you know 1941 01:17:40,070 --> 01:17:38,080 of ways of experience and knowing and 1942 01:17:42,870 --> 01:17:40,080 life and all of that and 1943 01:17:46,070 --> 01:17:42,880 he's much more that way than i i am and 1944 01:17:49,030 --> 01:17:46,080 i'm not engaged in things the same way 1945 01:17:51,270 --> 01:17:49,040 he is i think ken will agree with me 1946 01:17:53,270 --> 01:17:51,280 that self-reflection the stage 1947 01:17:55,030 --> 01:17:53,280 development of humanity and there is 1948 01:17:56,550 --> 01:17:55,040 other stages like 1949 01:17:58,149 --> 01:17:56,560 immediate knowing 1950 01:18:00,790 --> 01:17:58,159 it sounds to me from what you said 1951 01:18:02,390 --> 01:18:00,800 earlier about the human actually i don't 1952 01:18:03,669 --> 01:18:02,400 know if this is from a talk i believe 1953 01:18:06,070 --> 01:18:03,679 this is from a talk about humans 1954 01:18:07,910 --> 01:18:06,080 infinite potential and that we're at a 1955 01:18:10,550 --> 01:18:07,920 privileged place as humans because of 1956 01:18:12,470 --> 01:18:10,560 our ability to self-reflect and who else 1957 01:18:14,070 --> 01:18:12,480 would know god if there were no humans 1958 01:18:15,750 --> 01:18:14,080 let's assume that there are no other 1959 01:18:18,390 --> 01:18:15,760 highly intelligent living creatures and 1960 01:18:20,709 --> 01:18:18,400 so on but that statement seems to agree 1961 01:18:22,310 --> 01:18:20,719 with what ken said the reason is that if 1962 01:18:24,149 --> 01:18:22,320 we go back to childhood we have less 1963 01:18:25,669 --> 01:18:24,159 self-reflective capabilities some people 1964 01:18:27,990 --> 01:18:25,679 may say much like you had the 1965 01:18:30,070 --> 01:18:28,000 disagreement that children can be closer 1966 01:18:32,550 --> 01:18:30,080 to god in some ways but then if we take 1967 01:18:34,310 --> 01:18:32,560 that further the less reflective 1968 01:18:36,630 --> 01:18:34,320 cognitive capabilities that we have the 1969 01:18:39,270 --> 01:18:36,640 more we're like the worms and the 1970 01:18:40,790 --> 01:18:39,280 beetles and so on so the fact that we 1971 01:18:41,750 --> 01:18:40,800 would say or the fact that you said in 1972 01:18:44,149 --> 01:18:41,760 the 1973 01:18:46,390 --> 01:18:44,159 human infinite potential conference or 1974 01:18:49,030 --> 01:18:46,400 talk that we're at a privileged place 1975 01:18:51,430 --> 01:18:49,040 seems to to me to indicate that actually 1976 01:18:52,310 --> 01:18:51,440 yes we're somehow somewhere 1977 01:18:54,070 --> 01:18:52,320 higher 1978 01:18:56,149 --> 01:18:54,080 on the spiritual development scale than 1979 01:18:57,590 --> 01:18:56,159 children so that's why i was saying that 1980 01:19:00,229 --> 01:18:57,600 it sounds to me like you actually agree 1981 01:19:02,229 --> 01:19:00,239 with ken from what i understood of your 1982 01:19:04,070 --> 01:19:02,239 lessons in that other lecture am i 1983 01:19:06,870 --> 01:19:04,080 understanding that incorrectly 1984 01:19:09,590 --> 01:19:06,880 but but you're you're putting two things 1985 01:19:11,030 --> 01:19:09,600 together that i don't do 1986 01:19:13,189 --> 01:19:11,040 which are you talking about 1987 01:19:15,270 --> 01:19:13,199 self-reflective capacity 1988 01:19:17,590 --> 01:19:15,280 which is true it's a development that 1989 01:19:19,510 --> 01:19:17,600 human human being has and we don't have 1990 01:19:21,110 --> 01:19:19,520 it as little babies we don't have 1991 01:19:24,310 --> 01:19:21,120 self-reflection 1992 01:19:25,990 --> 01:19:24,320 however when you are in a realized place 1993 01:19:29,669 --> 01:19:26,000 the most realized 1994 01:19:31,830 --> 01:19:29,679 condition is not self-reflective 1995 01:19:33,750 --> 01:19:31,840 does not reflect on itself 1996 01:19:34,830 --> 01:19:33,760 because when it reflects itself there's 1997 01:19:36,870 --> 01:19:34,840 nothing 1998 01:19:38,709 --> 01:19:36,880 there it 1999 01:19:41,510 --> 01:19:38,719 can only look forward 2000 01:19:42,950 --> 01:19:41,520 but the point i want to say is that when 2001 01:19:44,390 --> 01:19:42,960 i say children are in touch with 2002 01:19:48,470 --> 01:19:44,400 spirituality i don't mean they're 2003 01:19:50,229 --> 01:19:48,480 self-reflective i mean they're being 2004 01:19:51,910 --> 01:19:50,239 when when they're happy they are really 2005 01:19:55,430 --> 01:19:51,920 happy 2006 01:19:56,950 --> 01:19:55,440 you see the happiness is pure 2007 01:19:59,189 --> 01:19:56,960 and sometimes they're happy for no 2008 01:20:02,550 --> 01:19:59,199 reason they're just gurgling 2009 01:20:04,470 --> 01:20:02,560 and for me that is a spiritual quality 2010 01:20:05,910 --> 01:20:04,480 they might not know it they might not 2011 01:20:08,149 --> 01:20:05,920 know they're happy 2012 01:20:10,390 --> 01:20:08,159 they know self-reflection 2013 01:20:12,550 --> 01:20:10,400 self-reflection is actually 2014 01:20:14,629 --> 01:20:12,560 as a good human quality 2015 01:20:17,830 --> 01:20:14,639 it's necessary human quality but at the 2016 01:20:19,750 --> 01:20:17,840 same time it is the beginning of ego 2017 01:20:22,310 --> 01:20:19,760 without self-reflection we won't have 2018 01:20:25,510 --> 01:20:23,590 you see 2019 01:20:27,030 --> 01:20:25,520 and self-reflection 2020 01:20:31,669 --> 01:20:27,040 is 2021 01:20:34,229 --> 01:20:31,679 general or even for inquiry the way i do 2022 01:20:35,430 --> 01:20:34,239 it we do need to have self reflection 2023 01:20:37,750 --> 01:20:35,440 but 2024 01:20:39,990 --> 01:20:37,760 selfish is one capacity that 2025 01:20:42,310 --> 01:20:40,000 consciousness has but 2026 01:20:44,229 --> 01:20:42,320 but consciousness also can know itself 2027 01:20:46,790 --> 01:20:44,239 without self-reflection 2028 01:20:50,229 --> 01:20:46,800 can know itself by being that's that 2029 01:20:52,470 --> 01:20:50,239 that the english word gnosis comes from 2030 01:20:55,590 --> 01:20:52,480 you know on wazes and the way the greeks 2031 01:20:58,310 --> 01:20:55,600 say it is that i know myself by being 2032 01:21:01,990 --> 01:20:58,320 myself i'm not reflecting 2033 01:21:04,310 --> 01:21:02,000 it's like i am in in expanse a medium of 2034 01:21:06,870 --> 01:21:04,320 consciousness 2035 01:21:09,110 --> 01:21:06,880 and this medium aware of itself at all 2036 01:21:12,790 --> 01:21:09,120 points of itself 2037 01:21:14,870 --> 01:21:12,800 and it is this medium is speaking to you 2038 01:21:17,430 --> 01:21:14,880 so it doesn't need to reflect on itself 2039 01:21:19,590 --> 01:21:17,440 it sees through itself 2040 01:21:21,750 --> 01:21:19,600 it's a the whole medium is 2041 01:21:23,350 --> 01:21:21,760 is not just within my body is outside my 2042 01:21:25,590 --> 01:21:23,360 body do 2043 01:21:28,070 --> 01:21:25,600 so that's not self-reflection that is 2044 01:21:31,030 --> 01:21:28,080 known by being 2045 01:21:33,669 --> 01:21:31,040 which is the the the true spiritual 2046 01:21:35,590 --> 01:21:33,679 capacity that people need to 2047 01:21:36,950 --> 01:21:35,600 er develop 2048 01:21:39,590 --> 01:21:36,960 to 2049 01:21:42,629 --> 01:21:39,600 have a realization and that is actually 2050 01:21:45,350 --> 01:21:42,639 what those who are trying to refer to by 2051 01:21:47,270 --> 01:21:45,360 talk about taste because taste is more 2052 01:21:50,229 --> 01:21:47,280 intimate than seeing 2053 01:21:51,110 --> 01:21:50,239 if something is it's you know inside or 2054 01:21:57,110 --> 01:21:51,120 touch 2055 01:21:58,709 --> 01:21:57,120 you're more 2056 01:22:01,669 --> 01:21:58,719 direct and the same thing with taste is 2057 01:22:04,550 --> 01:22:01,679 even more immediate it's inside you 2058 01:22:05,510 --> 01:22:04,560 you see while seeing is over there 2059 01:22:07,669 --> 01:22:05,520 you see 2060 01:22:10,550 --> 01:22:07,679 so immediacy 2061 01:22:12,229 --> 01:22:10,560 is a very important part of spiritual 2062 01:22:14,149 --> 01:22:12,239 all spiritual 2063 01:22:16,550 --> 01:22:14,159 experiences 2064 01:22:19,590 --> 01:22:16,560 there's no immediacy of experience which 2065 01:22:25,350 --> 01:22:19,600 means no it's beyond self-reflection it 2066 01:22:30,149 --> 01:22:26,990 and then this question comes from key 2067 01:22:32,229 --> 01:22:30,159 concrete007 at 55 i've become reflective 2068 01:22:34,390 --> 01:22:32,239 and decided to take dmt 2069 01:22:37,430 --> 01:22:34,400 not for recreational purposes but to 2070 01:22:39,669 --> 01:22:37,440 open my mind to fear and amazement 2071 01:22:41,669 --> 01:22:39,679 i've been an atheist all my life at one 2072 01:22:43,430 --> 01:22:41,679 point during my ayahuasca experience i 2073 01:22:46,149 --> 01:22:43,440 raised my hand skyward and said god 2074 01:22:48,470 --> 01:22:46,159 forgive me i'm no longer an atheist my 2075 01:22:50,470 --> 01:22:48,480 question what are your thoughts on the 2076 01:22:56,629 --> 01:22:50,480 controlled use of dmt or psychedelics in 2077 01:23:00,310 --> 01:22:58,310 good question 2078 01:23:01,830 --> 01:23:00,320 i know these days many people are 2079 01:23:03,270 --> 01:23:01,840 involved in 2080 01:23:06,229 --> 01:23:03,280 using 2081 01:23:08,870 --> 01:23:06,239 you know some of the substances to 2082 01:23:09,910 --> 01:23:08,880 access virtual realities and in fact 2083 01:23:12,550 --> 01:23:09,920 there are 2084 01:23:13,910 --> 01:23:12,560 you know some native 2085 01:23:15,510 --> 01:23:13,920 um 2086 01:23:17,750 --> 01:23:15,520 teaching in different 2087 01:23:22,950 --> 01:23:17,760 places where they use that 2088 01:23:38,790 --> 01:23:24,070 i 2089 01:23:40,629 --> 01:23:38,800 the 60s and 2090 01:23:42,310 --> 01:23:40,639 early 70s 2091 01:23:43,910 --> 01:23:42,320 but then after 2092 01:23:45,510 --> 01:23:43,920 when i started having spiritual 2093 01:23:47,430 --> 01:23:45,520 experiences 2094 01:23:50,470 --> 01:23:47,440 on my own without them 2095 01:23:53,590 --> 01:23:50,480 i did not go back 2096 01:23:55,350 --> 01:23:53,600 to the using those substances and and i 2097 01:23:56,470 --> 01:23:55,360 was wondering about the other day why 2098 01:23:58,709 --> 01:23:56,480 didn't i 2099 01:23:59,910 --> 01:23:58,719 it's not like somebody told me 2100 01:24:02,629 --> 01:23:59,920 don't do it 2101 01:24:03,669 --> 01:24:02,639 it just dropped out of my mind and and 2102 01:24:06,790 --> 01:24:03,679 now 2103 01:24:08,870 --> 01:24:06,800 i'm not that interested but i do 2104 01:24:10,550 --> 01:24:08,880 hear about it from students from other 2105 01:24:11,270 --> 01:24:10,560 people that they experiment with these 2106 01:24:16,149 --> 01:24:11,280 and 2107 01:24:19,830 --> 01:24:16,159 especially 2108 01:24:21,990 --> 01:24:19,840 for somebody who is 2109 01:24:23,669 --> 01:24:22,000 find it difficult to access a spiritual 2110 01:24:26,470 --> 01:24:23,679 dimension 2111 01:24:28,470 --> 01:24:26,480 it can can be i see it 2112 01:24:31,189 --> 01:24:28,480 helping them 2113 01:24:34,470 --> 01:24:31,199 do it once or twice it opened them up in 2114 01:24:37,030 --> 01:24:34,480 a way that they weren't being able to be 2115 01:24:39,189 --> 01:24:37,040 open and that way they 2116 01:24:42,310 --> 01:24:39,199 saw something about themselves very they 2117 01:24:45,750 --> 01:24:42,320 couldn't see before and that is really 2118 01:24:47,110 --> 01:24:45,760 helpful for their development 2119 01:24:49,910 --> 01:24:47,120 and evolution 2120 01:24:51,430 --> 01:24:49,920 so i think that way i've seen it being 2121 01:24:53,590 --> 01:24:51,440 useful that way 2122 01:24:56,149 --> 01:24:53,600 i wouldn't recommend that somebody use 2123 01:24:58,709 --> 01:24:56,159 it as their way of spiritual practice 2124 01:25:00,790 --> 01:24:58,719 unless they are part of some indigenous 2125 01:25:04,149 --> 01:25:00,800 tribe and they have their own 2126 01:25:05,830 --> 01:25:04,159 you know way of dealing with it 2127 01:25:08,629 --> 01:25:05,840 i find many of the people who we were 2128 01:25:11,030 --> 01:25:08,639 talking about earlier who with a 2129 01:25:12,870 --> 01:25:11,040 megaphone shout their toe out to other 2130 01:25:14,629 --> 01:25:12,880 people in such a manner that doesn't 2131 01:25:16,709 --> 01:25:14,639 have people welcoming their toe they 2132 01:25:18,390 --> 01:25:16,719 tend to have in common that their 2133 01:25:21,189 --> 01:25:18,400 insights were precipitated by their 2134 01:25:23,990 --> 01:25:21,199 private use of psychedelics so do you 2135 01:25:26,950 --> 01:25:24,000 see that psychedelics to inform one's 2136 01:25:29,510 --> 01:25:26,960 philosophy or ontology etc as removed 2137 01:25:31,430 --> 01:25:29,520 from a community is somehow 2138 01:25:33,270 --> 01:25:31,440 net negative in some manner or not as 2139 01:25:35,669 --> 01:25:33,280 pure 2140 01:25:38,390 --> 01:25:35,679 well it's not that you know it's more 2141 01:25:44,470 --> 01:25:40,629 comparing my experiences 2142 01:25:46,709 --> 01:25:44,480 from the 60s and 70s on psychedelics 2143 01:25:48,550 --> 01:25:46,719 from my later experiences was happens 2144 01:25:50,629 --> 01:25:48,560 more spontaneously 2145 01:25:52,229 --> 01:25:50,639 there is a difference in quality it's 2146 01:25:54,550 --> 01:25:52,239 not the same 2147 01:25:57,430 --> 01:25:54,560 the psychedelic gives it the 2148 01:25:59,669 --> 01:25:57,440 changes thing some way 2149 01:26:02,950 --> 01:25:59,679 that is 2150 01:26:04,470 --> 01:26:02,960 not how reality is exactly 2151 01:26:05,350 --> 01:26:04,480 when you experience 2152 01:26:06,830 --> 01:26:05,360 you know 2153 01:26:09,990 --> 01:26:06,840 one's raw 2154 01:26:13,030 --> 01:26:10,000 consciousness and and 2155 01:26:15,430 --> 01:26:13,040 it it has the possibility of opening up 2156 01:26:17,990 --> 01:26:15,440 but it also opens up to other things 2157 01:26:20,629 --> 01:26:18,000 that are not true you know it because 2158 01:26:22,790 --> 01:26:20,639 also can magnify our imagination 2159 01:26:23,910 --> 01:26:22,800 and that's why people have bad trips you 2160 01:26:25,510 --> 01:26:23,920 know 2161 01:26:28,070 --> 01:26:25,520 because it 2162 01:26:32,310 --> 01:26:28,080 could magnify anything 2163 01:26:38,229 --> 01:26:36,149 i the way i think about it is that 2164 01:26:40,790 --> 01:26:38,239 some traditions 2165 01:26:42,709 --> 01:26:40,800 like the ayahuasca tradition in south 2166 01:26:44,870 --> 01:26:42,719 america for instance 2167 01:26:46,070 --> 01:26:44,880 they have developed a way of working 2168 01:26:47,830 --> 01:26:46,080 with it 2169 01:26:49,189 --> 01:26:47,840 that they use it for 2170 01:26:51,189 --> 01:26:49,199 you know 2171 01:26:52,709 --> 01:26:51,199 as part of their 2172 01:26:55,990 --> 01:26:52,719 spiritual practice 2173 01:26:58,390 --> 01:26:56,000 but i also seen some 2174 01:27:00,870 --> 01:26:58,400 americans who went there and 2175 01:27:03,669 --> 01:27:00,880 did that and they came back and their 2176 01:27:05,350 --> 01:27:03,679 spiritual access naturally was 2177 01:27:07,750 --> 01:27:05,360 got more narrow 2178 01:27:09,030 --> 01:27:07,760 hmm interesting see that goes back to 2179 01:27:10,950 --> 01:27:09,040 what i was referring to earlier about 2180 01:27:13,030 --> 01:27:10,960 path dependence so some people would say 2181 01:27:15,110 --> 01:27:13,040 no this lesson works and it works 2182 01:27:16,950 --> 01:27:15,120 ubiquitously but it also depends on 2183 01:27:19,189 --> 01:27:16,960 where you are one of the ways that i 2184 01:27:20,709 --> 01:27:19,199 like to conceptualize this i'm curious 2185 01:27:21,430 --> 01:27:20,719 if you i'm curious what your thoughts 2186 01:27:23,830 --> 01:27:21,440 are 2187 01:27:26,229 --> 01:27:23,840 is that i see some westerners taking on 2188 01:27:28,390 --> 01:27:26,239 eastern approaches and vice versa 2189 01:27:31,110 --> 01:27:28,400 somewhat uncritically and i wonder if 2190 01:27:34,390 --> 01:27:31,120 that's always a net benefit because to 2191 01:27:36,310 --> 01:27:34,400 me it's akin to installing max off force 2192 01:27:37,830 --> 01:27:36,320 installing mac software on your pc 2193 01:27:39,830 --> 01:27:37,840 you're going to get errors if it's not 2194 01:27:41,669 --> 01:27:39,840 compatible with how you grew up with 2195 01:27:45,350 --> 01:27:41,679 what your view is right now do you see 2196 01:27:46,629 --> 01:27:45,360 that i think there is a point there 2197 01:27:49,910 --> 01:27:46,639 occurred 2198 01:27:52,310 --> 01:27:49,920 in the sense that the 2199 01:27:53,750 --> 01:27:52,320 the eastern approach they have their own 2200 01:27:55,590 --> 01:27:53,760 world view 2201 01:27:57,669 --> 01:27:55,600 they're which is different from a 2202 01:27:58,950 --> 01:27:57,679 western world world view 2203 01:28:00,950 --> 01:27:58,960 for instance 2204 01:28:02,950 --> 01:28:00,960 um 2205 01:28:04,790 --> 01:28:02,960 both the indian spirituality and 2206 01:28:07,590 --> 01:28:04,800 buddhist spirituality 2207 01:28:09,750 --> 01:28:07,600 developed on being 2208 01:28:11,910 --> 01:28:09,760 free from samsara 2209 01:28:13,510 --> 01:28:11,920 right by the kosamsara which is the 2210 01:28:15,350 --> 01:28:13,520 ordinary world 2211 01:28:17,830 --> 01:28:15,360 and basically 2212 01:28:20,390 --> 01:28:17,840 because they believe in reincarnation 2213 01:28:23,030 --> 01:28:20,400 is that the idea is to not reincarnate 2214 01:28:27,110 --> 01:28:25,189 you want to be enlightened so they'll be 2215 01:28:28,550 --> 01:28:27,120 free from this world and not come back 2216 01:28:31,669 --> 01:28:28,560 again 2217 01:28:34,310 --> 01:28:31,679 and and the west we don't subscribe to 2218 01:28:36,550 --> 01:28:34,320 that kind of thing you know 2219 01:28:38,070 --> 01:28:36,560 incarnation coming back whatever you 2220 01:28:40,310 --> 01:28:38,080 know for me 2221 01:28:42,790 --> 01:28:40,320 i don't know if that's true or not 2222 01:28:43,830 --> 01:28:42,800 see so i don't look at spirituality that 2223 01:28:48,709 --> 01:28:43,840 way 2224 01:28:50,870 --> 01:28:48,719 i i look at spirituality that is to 2225 01:28:52,390 --> 01:28:50,880 make life as complete as deep as 2226 01:28:55,750 --> 01:28:52,400 possible 2227 01:28:57,110 --> 01:28:55,760 and that means something else for later 2228 01:28:58,950 --> 01:28:57,120 right 2229 01:28:59,910 --> 01:28:58,960 see and so 2230 01:29:04,870 --> 01:28:59,920 so 2231 01:29:07,830 --> 01:29:04,880 adopt the eastern view of with all 2232 01:29:09,790 --> 01:29:07,840 their philosophical or 2233 01:29:13,590 --> 01:29:09,800 metaphysical perspective of 2234 01:29:20,950 --> 01:29:15,189 and 2235 01:29:22,950 --> 01:29:20,960 which which has in it a way of saying 2236 01:29:26,229 --> 01:29:22,960 that this world is 2237 01:29:27,510 --> 01:29:26,239 is no good this that's you're here 2238 01:29:28,390 --> 01:29:27,520 you see 2239 01:29:30,070 --> 01:29:28,400 i 2240 01:29:32,550 --> 01:29:30,080 myself 2241 01:29:34,709 --> 01:29:32,560 i don't know i mean i'm i don't know i 2242 01:29:36,229 --> 01:29:34,719 mean i i have some experiences of 2243 01:29:39,030 --> 01:29:36,239 incarnation whatever i don't know if 2244 01:29:39,830 --> 01:29:39,040 they're true or not if they're real or 2245 01:29:42,390 --> 01:29:39,840 not 2246 01:29:45,030 --> 01:29:42,400 and so i don't subscribe to that 2247 01:29:47,189 --> 01:29:45,040 so it's true if somebody who's watching 2248 01:29:48,950 --> 01:29:47,199 who takes on that like they're putting a 2249 01:29:50,149 --> 01:29:48,960 hat on 2250 01:29:51,110 --> 01:29:50,159 their brain 2251 01:29:55,430 --> 01:29:51,120 that 2252 01:29:56,870 --> 01:29:55,440 is just a hat on them it's not really uh 2253 01:29:58,790 --> 01:29:56,880 uh 2254 01:30:02,470 --> 01:29:58,800 naturally 2255 01:30:05,110 --> 01:30:02,480 arising inside within them 2256 01:30:07,430 --> 01:30:05,120 but spiritual but however if somebody 2257 01:30:10,790 --> 01:30:07,440 takes the spiritual tradition 2258 01:30:13,669 --> 01:30:10,800 and take the practices and learn to 2259 01:30:15,750 --> 01:30:13,679 connect to the truth of who they are and 2260 01:30:16,629 --> 01:30:15,760 then that is independent of the world 2261 01:30:18,310 --> 01:30:16,639 view 2262 01:30:19,430 --> 01:30:18,320 because you're just what you are at this 2263 01:30:23,270 --> 01:30:19,440 moment 2264 01:30:24,790 --> 01:30:23,280 to do with the past or the future so 2265 01:30:25,910 --> 01:30:24,800 you're not thinking of 2266 01:30:27,669 --> 01:30:25,920 all the 2267 01:30:30,229 --> 01:30:27,679 you're free of the world of you 2268 01:30:32,470 --> 01:30:30,239 basically any world of view 2269 01:30:34,790 --> 01:30:32,480 in that way it could be useful yes and 2270 01:30:38,070 --> 01:30:34,800 many i think have found it useful that 2271 01:30:41,430 --> 01:30:39,430 thank you sir 2272 01:30:43,110 --> 01:30:41,440 thank you for coming on to the program 2273 01:30:44,629 --> 01:30:43,120 and answering these questions spending 2274 01:30:51,270 --> 01:30:44,639 some time with me 2275 01:30:54,950 --> 01:30:53,189 the podcast is now finished if you'd 2276 01:30:58,070 --> 01:30:54,960 like to support conversations like this 2277 01:31:02,229 --> 01:30:58,080 then do consider going to patreon.com 2278 01:31:04,790 --> 01:31:02,239 c-u-r-t j-a-i-m-u-n-g-a 2279 01:31:06,629 --> 01:31:04,800 that is kurt jymungal it's support from 2280 01:31:08,470 --> 01:31:06,639 the patrons and from the sponsors that